“...provided we can stay focused on its causes and its eventual cure.” The devil is in that detail. Biden seems to understand what to do. Perhaps we could listen more to his words and consider his leadership as helpful.
“Republicanism ... has no plan to win over this generation, just as they have no solid plan to woo large numbers of minority voters or suburban women.”
Republicans have no plan for ANYTHING. At their convention in 2020 they officially and publicly declared they have no platform!
Christopher, I was merely responding to the idea that Republicans have no plan. I do not think the party has anything loosely resembling a plan. But that the Heritage Foundation does have a plan and if you looked under the Republican Party's robes you will find them and their Project.. Ah, words!
Carolyn, I got your point about the Heritage Foundation having a plan. Their "Project 2025" plan to overthrow democracy and implement fascism.
*MY* point is that those on the left have a distinct tendency to modify their language to avoid calling Republicans out plainly, even when the Republicans themselves have no hesitation to do so.
I see Republicans publicly declaring in plain English that they want to suppress the vote, and then see liberals saying "It seems Republicans want to suppress the vote." to give just one smaller example.
We have got to stop softening our words and call them out, or all we're doing is enabling them and normalizing their policies and actions.
They are the party of Know Nothings and DO NOTHINGS. A new viable Conservative Party must for the good of the USA must rise from the ashes of the morally and intellectually bankrupt GOP. The party of Lincoln,Teddy Roosevelt and Nelson Rockefeller lies in total ruins.
"do not ever go for a win-lose scenario where you think you will be able to rationally argue a [cult] follower out of their worldview. Facts matter, but respect, context, and your communication delivery are key. Your most potent weapon is a good, thoughtful question"
I don't think you can ever change a cult members mind. You can be nice, you can be mean, you can hurt them, you can pamper them. It doesn't matter. Until they are ready to walk away they won't walk away. I wouldn't waste my energy on them.
I tried that with my brother. He insisted he knows the Constitution better than me and pretty much anyone besides Trump. He then told me if I ever came near him again I’d leave in a body bag. Grateful I married a Swede and moved here -- he’s 7000 miles away and has no economic means to travel here. (He is a trumper who would actually have benefited ore from Sanders.)
We all would have benefited more from Bernie Sanders. The powers that be would not allow that to happen, even if he was on the ballot. I'm convinced he would win a general election even as a third-party candidate.
What is the thoughtful question to be asked of a Trump cult member to encourage them to think? Maybe: "How would your actions and thinking be different from what you are doing now if you were actually following a cult leader?" Or do we need to start with: "Is there anything wrong with following and pledging allegiance to a cult leader?" to see if there is some level of a rational thinking capability?
Asking questions in the right order seems to be very effective in getting people to change their OWN minds. I'm listeningto to
"HOW MINDS CHANGE: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion" by DAVID McRANEY.
The number one question is to first ask YOURSELF "why?" "Why do I want to change their mind?—in your mental backpack as you travel with me chapter by chapter. And I hope that question will blossom, as it did for me, into a series of questions."
Excellent article! My book, Following Jesus in the Age of Trumpism deals with this very issue. See Trust Terry Substack. I think using the 14th amendment to prevent Trump from running for office will go a long way to weaning Trumpists from the cult. However - we are dealing with a real threat to our Democracy..
My reservoir of pity, compassion & a desire to help them find a better path is drying up. A few Christmases ago, a MAGAT knocked out communications to a large part of the South, mid South, Midwest was knocked out - both phone & internet - & the perpetrator was blown to bits / burnt up. Terrorist actions get NO SYMPATHY from me & a lot of other relatively innocent people. Karma hit the perp like a big pile of cement bricks. Again, NO SYMPATHY. Fresh out of sympathy for subhuman troglodytic human parodies.
It MIGHT be a bit of freezing cold, harsh reality, but " how do we deprogram them ? ". We can't. They LOVE being delusional. They love being led with a " guru " or fake messiah. They think that every little jab " owns the libs ". We just do what we can to keep them from harming themselves & / or others. Maybe we keep them in mental institutions under heavy sedation like the criminally insane. We start with Marjorie Taylor Gangrene.....
I really think that they're happier following a false prophet / fake messiah who spins delusional fantasies. They don't want to find a way out. That's indoctrination for you.
Agree. I’m Jewish and hesitate to say or think this, but Herr Pumpkinfuhrer and his followers seem, to me, to have the potential to be worse than Nazism. That terrifies me.
Deprogramming is a very outdated term in cultic studies. Exit counseling was next-gen. Relationships and interpersonal communications do make a difference. Tarrio, for example, may well care deeply for his family. That connection can be a resource for him to rebuild a more sensible and healthy worldview. He’s also intelligent. Prison may offer him the opportunity to become more educated and develop new ideas.
I realize this is a bit ridiculous as a metaphor. But people who used to smoke or drink can be the most adamant anti-smokers, once they’ve rejected the addiction. And they know things about what it’s like to be addicted ...
The thing about the demographics argument is that Republicans have a "solution" for this (or "solutions", I should say): Gerrymandering, Voter Suppression, and yes, even Ramaswamy's insane plan to bar people from under the age of 25 from voting (but I'll bet that he has no issue with them owning a gun). Just keep gaming the system, fearmongering against those who look/think/act/live differently than you do, and everything will work out fine. And, they have multiple tv stations (Fox, OANN, Newsmax, etc.), not to mention countless right wing talking heads, spewing their misinformation to everyone who will listen. Democrats and liberals are fighting a steep, uphill battle here.
not that I am a great believer in polls, but...have there been any polls of trumpites only going down the various issues (not just "do you love him.") Are they solid in approving of "Don't Say Gay" or book bans or climate change denial and skewed views of the history of various hues of people of color? How do they feel about the Japanese internments of WWII, for example. Would they feel OK with their daughter marrying a Jew? an Asian? Obviously a question like "do you consider yourself racist or antisemitic" isn't going to get much traction.
The question I'm searching for is what wedges might be used to pry some of them out to a more objective stance on at least some issues.
Fascism and cultism go hand in hand. Co-opting the church(or creating one of your own) also resides in both. It gives the fascist or the cult leader “legitimacy “. The dirty secret about the Catholic Church in the rise of Nazi Germany was that they looked the other way (at best). Germany was mostly Catholic, and Hitler agreed to not raid the enormous wealth of the Vatican in return for their complicity in staying quiet.
SHOULD tRump become the GQP nominee for prez, and SHOULD he lose - even decisively - the 2024 general election, the odds of a repeat of the "we wuz robbed!" scenario are quite good, as he and the right-wing megaphone will begin messaging "The Big Steal" early and often in the election run-up, and tRump could even proclaim on Election Night that he "won" by "millions" of votes, and the same people who "stole" his "win" in 2020 are back at it again. Big difference is that tRump won't have the machinery of the federal govt. behind him, but there maybe enough election deniers holding key positions in several states to actually attempt to overthrow popular will...remember, Moore v Harper didn't completely sink the "independent state legislature" theory, as Roberts did allow a future SCOTUS review of a state's court actions concerning that state's election laws if such court's decision "transgresses the ordinary bounds of judicial review" when adjudicating the constitutionality of state election laws. It ain't over 'til it's over, not with the MAGA tRumpist crowd.
Notice the Trumpists looking upward as if having a religious / spiritual experience ? These folks are BEYOND help or wanting to seek help. Maybe if we treated them like people in need of help - like the criminally insane, we could at least reduce the damage that they could inflict.
About losing. The leader being seen as weak erodes conviction. Trump has FAFO’d. He’s out. Now the GOP needs to lose and lose big and lose in places they didn’t expect to lose. They are covering for Trump and they are just starting to see the cost. If it doesn’t cost them HEAVILY, they will cling to their current strategy of minority rule.
Cult members are perfectly capable of regrouping; e.g., after cultic leaders declare the world is ending on this or that day, when it doesn’t happen, they often have a new explanation and people do buy it--because they haven’t dealt with the emotional fallout of understanding what a dumb ass they’ve been. Acknowledging that people have been lied to might help some face facts, rather than being defensive over being gullible & ignorant. Even though they could have googled it, read different sources, gotten more accurate info, it might be more effective to engage w/o pointing out those things.
Beginning to think that the people who are still supporting a man with 91 Indictments are just plain "brain dead", how on earth can they be so sucked in to such bull#$&!? They are all doing exactly what the Germans did when they thought Hitler walked on water...millions of people died because of one man...world war 2 came about because of Hitler...and I guess that's what stupid, dumb, people think...."TRUMP, TRUMP, TRUMP"...best president ever..well kiss my ass... we'll no longer have a country since he'll give America to Russia or China to once again get more for himself.....
I had a cousin who's family deemed her back in the old days to be part of a cult because it was a commune and Evangelical-ish. How quaint that seems now. It only took a few years before she decided she didn't like getting any of her hard-earned money because it all went to the church leaders. Maybe those that send in their monthly check to Trump will finally realize that he has never done anything for them to deserve their support and that they'd be better off keeping their money and their fealty to democracy instead of to the Cult or Trump.
“...provided we can stay focused on its causes and its eventual cure.” The devil is in that detail. Biden seems to understand what to do. Perhaps we could listen more to his words and consider his leadership as helpful.
LISTEN TO BIDEN. ,?
THE CLOWN CAN'T EVEN COMPLETE A FULL SENTENCE WITHOUT FORGETTING WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT OR WHERE HE IS AT.
Rather irrelevant comment since he is no longer part of the election equation.
Does he? Because he seems to overestimate his own importance in all this.
I believe he is sincere in this regard, not political.
“Republicanism ... has no plan to win over this generation, just as they have no solid plan to woo large numbers of minority voters or suburban women.”
Republicans have no plan for ANYTHING. At their convention in 2020 they officially and publicly declared they have no platform!
Apparently the Heritage Foundation does have a Project prepared and it does not require Trump.
“Apparently”?
They ARE.
They’ve been publicizing it for months. Why the hesitation to call them out on it?
Every “Apparently”, “It seems... ”, and “They might be...” is collusion providing them with cover for their overt actions to destroy democracy.
We shouldn’t be helping them out.
Christopher, I was merely responding to the idea that Republicans have no plan. I do not think the party has anything loosely resembling a plan. But that the Heritage Foundation does have a plan and if you looked under the Republican Party's robes you will find them and their Project.. Ah, words!
Carolyn, I got your point about the Heritage Foundation having a plan. Their "Project 2025" plan to overthrow democracy and implement fascism.
*MY* point is that those on the left have a distinct tendency to modify their language to avoid calling Republicans out plainly, even when the Republicans themselves have no hesitation to do so.
I see Republicans publicly declaring in plain English that they want to suppress the vote, and then see liberals saying "It seems Republicans want to suppress the vote." to give just one smaller example.
We have got to stop softening our words and call them out, or all we're doing is enabling them and normalizing their policies and actions.
You make perfect sense, Christopher. 💯
Thanks. I always try to. 😉
Preach, my friend!
Yes, they do. The infrastructure that was briefly referenced is alive and working hard.
They have lots of plans for vengeance on their perceived political enemies.
They are the party of Know Nothings and DO NOTHINGS. A new viable Conservative Party must for the good of the USA must rise from the ashes of the morally and intellectually bankrupt GOP. The party of Lincoln,Teddy Roosevelt and Nelson Rockefeller lies in total ruins.
Quote from cult expert Steven Hassan
"do not ever go for a win-lose scenario where you think you will be able to rationally argue a [cult] follower out of their worldview. Facts matter, but respect, context, and your communication delivery are key. Your most potent weapon is a good, thoughtful question"
The Cult of Trump, p226
I don't think you can ever change a cult members mind. You can be nice, you can be mean, you can hurt them, you can pamper them. It doesn't matter. Until they are ready to walk away they won't walk away. I wouldn't waste my energy on them.
Steve is exactly right on this. Questions disarm people and can make them think.
I tried that with my brother. He insisted he knows the Constitution better than me and pretty much anyone besides Trump. He then told me if I ever came near him again I’d leave in a body bag. Grateful I married a Swede and moved here -- he’s 7000 miles away and has no economic means to travel here. (He is a trumper who would actually have benefited ore from Sanders.)
We all would have benefited more from Bernie Sanders. The powers that be would not allow that to happen, even if he was on the ballot. I'm convinced he would win a general election even as a third-party candidate.
What is the thoughtful question to be asked of a Trump cult member to encourage them to think? Maybe: "How would your actions and thinking be different from what you are doing now if you were actually following a cult leader?" Or do we need to start with: "Is there anything wrong with following and pledging allegiance to a cult leader?" to see if there is some level of a rational thinking capability?
Asking questions in the right order seems to be very effective in getting people to change their OWN minds. I'm listeningto to
"HOW MINDS CHANGE: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion" by DAVID McRANEY.
The number one question is to first ask YOURSELF "why?" "Why do I want to change their mind?—in your mental backpack as you travel with me chapter by chapter. And I hope that question will blossom, as it did for me, into a series of questions."
Excellent article! My book, Following Jesus in the Age of Trumpism deals with this very issue. See Trust Terry Substack. I think using the 14th amendment to prevent Trump from running for office will go a long way to weaning Trumpists from the cult. However - we are dealing with a real threat to our Democracy..
“They stop posting Facebook memes, put away the MAGA hat, get back into cooking or sports or whatever it was that interested them before Trump.”
Just like the Nazi supporters after World War II they’ll try to quietly slink away, denying they ever even heard of Trump.
We must not let them. They need to know we will never allow them to escape the stink of their efforts to destroy our country.
For a well researched and concise analysis of the demographic catastrophe facing the GOP, read 'The Kids Are All Left' by David Faris.
The results of the last several elections prove him right.
My reservoir of pity, compassion & a desire to help them find a better path is drying up. A few Christmases ago, a MAGAT knocked out communications to a large part of the South, mid South, Midwest was knocked out - both phone & internet - & the perpetrator was blown to bits / burnt up. Terrorist actions get NO SYMPATHY from me & a lot of other relatively innocent people. Karma hit the perp like a big pile of cement bricks. Again, NO SYMPATHY. Fresh out of sympathy for subhuman troglodytic human parodies.
It MIGHT be a bit of freezing cold, harsh reality, but " how do we deprogram them ? ". We can't. They LOVE being delusional. They love being led with a " guru " or fake messiah. They think that every little jab " owns the libs ". We just do what we can to keep them from harming themselves & / or others. Maybe we keep them in mental institutions under heavy sedation like the criminally insane. We start with Marjorie Taylor Gangrene.....
We cannot deprogram them, I’m afraid. They must find their own way out.
I really think that they're happier following a false prophet / fake messiah who spins delusional fantasies. They don't want to find a way out. That's indoctrination for you.
Agree. I’m Jewish and hesitate to say or think this, but Herr Pumpkinfuhrer and his followers seem, to me, to have the potential to be worse than Nazism. That terrifies me.
Deprogramming is a very outdated term in cultic studies. Exit counseling was next-gen. Relationships and interpersonal communications do make a difference. Tarrio, for example, may well care deeply for his family. That connection can be a resource for him to rebuild a more sensible and healthy worldview. He’s also intelligent. Prison may offer him the opportunity to become more educated and develop new ideas.
I realize this is a bit ridiculous as a metaphor. But people who used to smoke or drink can be the most adamant anti-smokers, once they’ve rejected the addiction. And they know things about what it’s like to be addicted ...
SOUNDS LIKE YOUR A COMMUNIST
The thing about the demographics argument is that Republicans have a "solution" for this (or "solutions", I should say): Gerrymandering, Voter Suppression, and yes, even Ramaswamy's insane plan to bar people from under the age of 25 from voting (but I'll bet that he has no issue with them owning a gun). Just keep gaming the system, fearmongering against those who look/think/act/live differently than you do, and everything will work out fine. And, they have multiple tv stations (Fox, OANN, Newsmax, etc.), not to mention countless right wing talking heads, spewing their misinformation to everyone who will listen. Democrats and liberals are fighting a steep, uphill battle here.
In this plan I believe they will lose.
For the sake of our future, they must (lose).
I believe they will lose, too, Jay.
not that I am a great believer in polls, but...have there been any polls of trumpites only going down the various issues (not just "do you love him.") Are they solid in approving of "Don't Say Gay" or book bans or climate change denial and skewed views of the history of various hues of people of color? How do they feel about the Japanese internments of WWII, for example. Would they feel OK with their daughter marrying a Jew? an Asian? Obviously a question like "do you consider yourself racist or antisemitic" isn't going to get much traction.
The question I'm searching for is what wedges might be used to pry some of them out to a more objective stance on at least some issues.
Fascism and cultism go hand in hand. Co-opting the church(or creating one of your own) also resides in both. It gives the fascist or the cult leader “legitimacy “. The dirty secret about the Catholic Church in the rise of Nazi Germany was that they looked the other way (at best). Germany was mostly Catholic, and Hitler agreed to not raid the enormous wealth of the Vatican in return for their complicity in staying quiet.
SHOULD tRump become the GQP nominee for prez, and SHOULD he lose - even decisively - the 2024 general election, the odds of a repeat of the "we wuz robbed!" scenario are quite good, as he and the right-wing megaphone will begin messaging "The Big Steal" early and often in the election run-up, and tRump could even proclaim on Election Night that he "won" by "millions" of votes, and the same people who "stole" his "win" in 2020 are back at it again. Big difference is that tRump won't have the machinery of the federal govt. behind him, but there maybe enough election deniers holding key positions in several states to actually attempt to overthrow popular will...remember, Moore v Harper didn't completely sink the "independent state legislature" theory, as Roberts did allow a future SCOTUS review of a state's court actions concerning that state's election laws if such court's decision "transgresses the ordinary bounds of judicial review" when adjudicating the constitutionality of state election laws. It ain't over 'til it's over, not with the MAGA tRumpist crowd.
Notice the Trumpists looking upward as if having a religious / spiritual experience ? These folks are BEYOND help or wanting to seek help. Maybe if we treated them like people in need of help - like the criminally insane, we could at least reduce the damage that they could inflict.
About losing. The leader being seen as weak erodes conviction. Trump has FAFO’d. He’s out. Now the GOP needs to lose and lose big and lose in places they didn’t expect to lose. They are covering for Trump and they are just starting to see the cost. If it doesn’t cost them HEAVILY, they will cling to their current strategy of minority rule.
Cult members are perfectly capable of regrouping; e.g., after cultic leaders declare the world is ending on this or that day, when it doesn’t happen, they often have a new explanation and people do buy it--because they haven’t dealt with the emotional fallout of understanding what a dumb ass they’ve been. Acknowledging that people have been lied to might help some face facts, rather than being defensive over being gullible & ignorant. Even though they could have googled it, read different sources, gotten more accurate info, it might be more effective to engage w/o pointing out those things.
Beginning to think that the people who are still supporting a man with 91 Indictments are just plain "brain dead", how on earth can they be so sucked in to such bull#$&!? They are all doing exactly what the Germans did when they thought Hitler walked on water...millions of people died because of one man...world war 2 came about because of Hitler...and I guess that's what stupid, dumb, people think...."TRUMP, TRUMP, TRUMP"...best president ever..well kiss my ass... we'll no longer have a country since he'll give America to Russia or China to once again get more for himself.....
I had a cousin who's family deemed her back in the old days to be part of a cult because it was a commune and Evangelical-ish. How quaint that seems now. It only took a few years before she decided she didn't like getting any of her hard-earned money because it all went to the church leaders. Maybe those that send in their monthly check to Trump will finally realize that he has never done anything for them to deserve their support and that they'd be better off keeping their money and their fealty to democracy instead of to the Cult or Trump.
This article gives me hope that our American democracy will survive. It will take hard work, but we’ve proven we can can do it.