As a teacher, I will say that many girls with depression remain unseen - they are quiet, withdrawn, and generally compliant, in contrast to boys, who are much more likely to be disruptive. Based on that, boys are more likely to get attention, in the school system, in the community, and at home. This is similar to why girls are underdiagnosed with autism and ADHD, and why women are underdiagnosed with things like cardiac problems - because the baselines were are developed with male patients, and the assumption is that the symptoms seen in males are similar to those seen in females - and they are wrong. This is a basic problem with medicine, which as been recognized in medicine, but is only slowly being dealt with.
Has anyone asked Hawley why "things like courage and independence and assertiveness" are "masculine?" Feminists are not attacking those things as toxic. They are claiming the right to HAVE those virtues instead of being described as emotional, hysterical, stubborn, or generally uppity when they manifest those virtues.
And now there is a new prong to the argument that women can't have those virtues. Because they are "masculine" it will become commonplace to insist that any woman who evidences them must be "trans."
There may not have been any one political event in 2012 that would discourage girls. Women have made great strides in their ability to enter the "male" world but they STILL encounter that perception that so much of what they do WITHIN that male world is uppity. Ask any woman who has sat on a committee and had her contribution ignored until some male advanced it often in her exact words and received applause for the great idea. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has pointed out that she experienced EXACTLY the same thing.
Maybe girls are simply becoming aware through whatever means--social media or TV or simply being in some classrooms--that this phenomenon isn't going away. Solnit described Mansplaining in 2008, but it takes a while for a teen to learn about it and then experience it.
Right, and that somehow that's unnatural. Their vision of the world is so pathetically simplistic and entitled, and they are so easily triggered by anything outside of the little boxes they think everyone should live within. And they call US the snowflakes!?
As a woman who was raised by a misogynist, I can speak from experience when I write that one major reason that many girls feel such depression is because we live in a patriarchal society that does not value girls and women except as brood mares, child care providers and housekeepers. We are only valued for our compliance and beauty and when the beauty fades, we become invisible. We have religion to thank for it because most people worship a male god. If we insist on believing in god we should worship a god that is both male and female like two sides of the same coin. Both God and Goddess must be thought of as equal in every way. If not, women and girls will always be thought of as second class citizens and we will never reach the level of freedom, power and respect that men enjoy. As a little girl, what always weighed heavy on me was when I'd hear my father say that I would never be smarter, stronger, faster better, more accomplished etc. than my brother simply for the reason that I was female. I was very athletic and instead of my father praising me for my athleticism, his mantra was, "You should have been born a boy. Your skills are wasted on a female" I heard this a thousand times as a girl. He'd call me a weak female that was made from Adam's rib and I couldn't be trusted because Eve listened to the snake then tempted Adam which got them thrown out of Eden. I'd argue that churches are indoctrination breeding grounds for misogyny. People still believe this Eve, the snake and the apple nonsense and so long as they do, females will always be doomed to live their lives as second class citizens. The patriarchy must go.
I dunno, maybe it's because the Supreme Court of the country we live in decided that women shouldn't have any bodily autonomy, thereby making all women - of any age - "less than" any boy or man. Never mind all the negative fallout from undoing Roe v Wade, allowing corporations to decide what medications women can and cannot access, the recent judicial decision declaring mifepristone illegal... The assault on women and girls rights never ends and to think that none of it makes an impact is even more degrading.
The data here is from 2021 or earlier, so pre-dates the overturning of Roe v Wade. But I take the point. Makes it even more maddening that so many on the right are focused on making sure men and boys are being taken care of. But that pretty much tracks with their entire worldview, so...
While the data is from 2021, the attempts to overturn Roe v Wade are not. The rhetoric has become more and more vitriolic over time and that has taken a toll.
I would also add this more generic thought: if all the focus has been spent on boys, when would there have been time to focus on girls?
Because for the last six years or more only boys counted! And that’s because the MAGA-FASCIST PARTY of Trump sees us(Women) as inferior beings! The Right-Wing Media as well as the mainstream media outlets have continually demeaned and continues to demean women and put us in this envelope of unworthiness! In most of the so called Republican world, we’re second class citizens (if we’re white) and even lower if we’re people of colors! It’s high time for this to end! We outnumber males almost 2 to 1, possibly more and it’s more than past time for the disparity of treatment,both physically and mentally, to stop! This tyranny must end! Let LOVE Rule our world, because I for one will never be subservient to men!
Right. It's no accident that the ones claiming men and boys are the real victims here are the same folks who want to keep the patriarchy in tact. They are nothing if not painfully on brand.
As a teacher, I will say that many girls with depression remain unseen - they are quiet, withdrawn, and generally compliant, in contrast to boys, who are much more likely to be disruptive. Based on that, boys are more likely to get attention, in the school system, in the community, and at home. This is similar to why girls are underdiagnosed with autism and ADHD, and why women are underdiagnosed with things like cardiac problems - because the baselines were are developed with male patients, and the assumption is that the symptoms seen in males are similar to those seen in females - and they are wrong. This is a basic problem with medicine, which as been recognized in medicine, but is only slowly being dealt with.
This is an interesting perspective. We’re getting the wrong data because we’re approaching it all from the male perspective.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/13/the-female-problem-male-bias-in-medical-trials
Thanks for the perspective, Karen. That makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, all too much.
Has anyone asked Hawley why "things like courage and independence and assertiveness" are "masculine?" Feminists are not attacking those things as toxic. They are claiming the right to HAVE those virtues instead of being described as emotional, hysterical, stubborn, or generally uppity when they manifest those virtues.
And now there is a new prong to the argument that women can't have those virtues. Because they are "masculine" it will become commonplace to insist that any woman who evidences them must be "trans."
There may not have been any one political event in 2012 that would discourage girls. Women have made great strides in their ability to enter the "male" world but they STILL encounter that perception that so much of what they do WITHIN that male world is uppity. Ask any woman who has sat on a committee and had her contribution ignored until some male advanced it often in her exact words and received applause for the great idea. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has pointed out that she experienced EXACTLY the same thing.
Maybe girls are simply becoming aware through whatever means--social media or TV or simply being in some classrooms--that this phenomenon isn't going away. Solnit described Mansplaining in 2008, but it takes a while for a teen to learn about it and then experience it.
Right, and that somehow that's unnatural. Their vision of the world is so pathetically simplistic and entitled, and they are so easily triggered by anything outside of the little boxes they think everyone should live within. And they call US the snowflakes!?
As a woman who was raised by a misogynist, I can speak from experience when I write that one major reason that many girls feel such depression is because we live in a patriarchal society that does not value girls and women except as brood mares, child care providers and housekeepers. We are only valued for our compliance and beauty and when the beauty fades, we become invisible. We have religion to thank for it because most people worship a male god. If we insist on believing in god we should worship a god that is both male and female like two sides of the same coin. Both God and Goddess must be thought of as equal in every way. If not, women and girls will always be thought of as second class citizens and we will never reach the level of freedom, power and respect that men enjoy. As a little girl, what always weighed heavy on me was when I'd hear my father say that I would never be smarter, stronger, faster better, more accomplished etc. than my brother simply for the reason that I was female. I was very athletic and instead of my father praising me for my athleticism, his mantra was, "You should have been born a boy. Your skills are wasted on a female" I heard this a thousand times as a girl. He'd call me a weak female that was made from Adam's rib and I couldn't be trusted because Eve listened to the snake then tempted Adam which got them thrown out of Eden. I'd argue that churches are indoctrination breeding grounds for misogyny. People still believe this Eve, the snake and the apple nonsense and so long as they do, females will always be doomed to live their lives as second class citizens. The patriarchy must go.
Thank you, Sonia. This is an important perspective and very well said.
I dunno, maybe it's because the Supreme Court of the country we live in decided that women shouldn't have any bodily autonomy, thereby making all women - of any age - "less than" any boy or man. Never mind all the negative fallout from undoing Roe v Wade, allowing corporations to decide what medications women can and cannot access, the recent judicial decision declaring mifepristone illegal... The assault on women and girls rights never ends and to think that none of it makes an impact is even more degrading.
The data here is from 2021 or earlier, so pre-dates the overturning of Roe v Wade. But I take the point. Makes it even more maddening that so many on the right are focused on making sure men and boys are being taken care of. But that pretty much tracks with their entire worldview, so...
While the data is from 2021, the attempts to overturn Roe v Wade are not. The rhetoric has become more and more vitriolic over time and that has taken a toll.
I would also add this more generic thought: if all the focus has been spent on boys, when would there have been time to focus on girls?
Because for the last six years or more only boys counted! And that’s because the MAGA-FASCIST PARTY of Trump sees us(Women) as inferior beings! The Right-Wing Media as well as the mainstream media outlets have continually demeaned and continues to demean women and put us in this envelope of unworthiness! In most of the so called Republican world, we’re second class citizens (if we’re white) and even lower if we’re people of colors! It’s high time for this to end! We outnumber males almost 2 to 1, possibly more and it’s more than past time for the disparity of treatment,both physically and mentally, to stop! This tyranny must end! Let LOVE Rule our world, because I for one will never be subservient to men!
Patriarchy, anyone?
Right. It's no accident that the ones claiming men and boys are the real victims here are the same folks who want to keep the patriarchy in tact. They are nothing if not painfully on brand.