If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't .....then you might as well bite the bullet and do the right thing.
No more than you can cower forever under Putin's threat of nuclear retaliation, can you go through life forced into making ridiculous decisions just to appease the dog in the manger.
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment says that no insurrectionist can HOLD public office. It says nothing about RUNNING for public office. It is simple common sense that no candidate rendered ineligible for public office, in their right mind, would expend the time, money and effort on a campaign of certain futility. It can also be reasonably assumed that no serious political party would nominate an ineligible candidate when many other viable candidates exist within their ranks. But, we are talking about Trump and the Republican Party. Trump, with the backing of the gop, will do everything needed to be done to keep his name on the ballot, down to rallying his minions to write him in on every state ballot in which his name was successfully withheld (if indeed any states do successfully keep his name off their ballots). He can even win the election, Constitution or no Constitution. Where S314A has its power is in the capacity to prevent INSTALLATION of an insurrectionist candidate. Therefore, S314A can be successfully invoked by only one person in the nation: the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. If Trump does not get sworn in, he does not assume the office, period. And that is where things will get quite interesting.
Further magical dreaming on this scenario. Just like how the hostages were released in 1981 upon Reagan’s swearing in, the Supreme Court’s clerk releases a 7-2 decision at 11:59 am that TFG is an insurrectionist and is barred from office. Roberts hands a printed summary to TFG and the just sworn in VP and proceeds to swear the VP in as president.
Sadly, we would still end up with some reprehensible MAGAt republican president. Someone like Gym Jordan or Gaetz. And rump would still be pulling their strings, like the manager just thrown out of the game by the ump, hiding in the dugout tunnel and barking orders.
Let's make sure that none of these nightmare scenarios ever come to pass.
I’ve on occasion contemplated that very scenario. Two buffers come to mind:
1. Before Inauguration Day, the Electoral College must meet and the vote certified. We could be looking at Jan 6 deja vu.
2. If for some reason events proceed past #1, it’s the scenario you state. The VP is sworn in before the president. The Chief Justice could then immediately swear in the new VP as president.
I doubt either scenario will come to pass. I need to go back and refresh on the constitution and the internal workings of the electoral college vote, but it might be possible for the electors to only cast their VP electoral votes.
Why are you calling an amendment that was acted in 1874 a “new” idea? Added to ensure that no one who was part of a secession from the Federal government could afterwards run and gain public office, I cannot see that enrolling white nationalists and KKK and their ilk to be members of a political party is not a little on the treasonous side to begin with. Maybe the Republican Party needs to be treated like any other addict and be confronted with the consequences of their choices to try and re-invent the constitution in order keep themselves in power.
Trump is just a reflection of the American dysfunction whether you're one of voters who put him there or not. You can't kill your own shadow. You can only embrace your own suffering.
So, it bars insurrectionists from office. It doesn't bar them from the ballot. If Malia Obama wins as a write-in candidate, she still can't be president because she's 25. If Stephen Colbert wins as a write-in candidate, he can't be president because he was born in Canada. If Donald Trump wins, he can't be president because he supported an insurrection. Does that mean his running mate becomes president and selects a vice President? Does Congress decide? It would be the 118th Congress because the new congress members have not been sworn in. Are there enough outgoing Republicans and RINOs to do it? In 2017, they thought they could control him, now they know they can't. They also know that in an authoritarian government, they lose power. The evangelicals that vote also lose power because Trump no longer needs their votes. The Judicial Branch loses power. Mike Johnson would have to call them into session, if he is still Speaker.
“But the pessimist in me worries that no matter how Trump is defeated—either by operation of law or the ballot box—his supporters will simply never accept the outcome.”
Pessimist? You mean realist.
Of *course* Trump’s cultists will not accept the outcome. They’ve said so. In plain English. Repeatedly.
The way I read the 14th Amendment, he can run but even if he runs - he can't win. Either way - it's going to be up to the Supreme Ct. to make the final decision.
All the legal arguments and the possibilities are fascinating and seem frustratingly endless. No one imagined such a candidate being President, because anyone with an ounce of integrity would withdraw. Diaper Don is now accusing his republican contenders of cheating if they win; everyone cheats except DD. The old tea party are all toss pots.
I read somewhere that a lot of the GOP live in fear of Trump not to mention a few Military people. Maybe there are more in the GOP who won't vote for him because of this fear?
Evening, I have a question. StinkyPantsSmallHands just filed in kennebec County appealing Bellow’s ruling. Why file in County court? Do Maine rules say u have to start a lawsuit there? Or, is Kennebec County where plaintiffs have to file to sue the State?
“enemies thereof”. Of the thing just mentioned..Not enemies of the U.S. in general..As in North Korea or Russia..Those that took part in the insurrection or rebellion..just mentioned in the sentence above.. It is plain language..It seems that arguments are being made out of whole cloth that have nothing to do with Sec 3 of the 14th..
On the question of standing, (and I realize the optics of this) couldn't the Biden campaign be easily able to argue it suffers harm should TFG's name be on the general election ballot in a state?
Again, I recognize the political optics of that. I just don't think that such an argument (made by private lawyers without the use of the DOJ or other federal resources) would really make things that much worse. The GOP has already proven itself incapable and uninterested in governing. Unlike in 1860, secession isn't a realistic threat because MAGA state economies can't survive without the federal government, including federal $ that supports private industry like weapons manufacturers. Their state level politicians know it, they just won't say it publicly.
It’s not a theory. It’s not new.
It’s the Constitution.
If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't .....then you might as well bite the bullet and do the right thing.
No more than you can cower forever under Putin's threat of nuclear retaliation, can you go through life forced into making ridiculous decisions just to appease the dog in the manger.
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment says that no insurrectionist can HOLD public office. It says nothing about RUNNING for public office. It is simple common sense that no candidate rendered ineligible for public office, in their right mind, would expend the time, money and effort on a campaign of certain futility. It can also be reasonably assumed that no serious political party would nominate an ineligible candidate when many other viable candidates exist within their ranks. But, we are talking about Trump and the Republican Party. Trump, with the backing of the gop, will do everything needed to be done to keep his name on the ballot, down to rallying his minions to write him in on every state ballot in which his name was successfully withheld (if indeed any states do successfully keep his name off their ballots). He can even win the election, Constitution or no Constitution. Where S314A has its power is in the capacity to prevent INSTALLATION of an insurrectionist candidate. Therefore, S314A can be successfully invoked by only one person in the nation: the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. If Trump does not get sworn in, he does not assume the office, period. And that is where things will get quite interesting.
Further magical dreaming on this scenario. Just like how the hostages were released in 1981 upon Reagan’s swearing in, the Supreme Court’s clerk releases a 7-2 decision at 11:59 am that TFG is an insurrectionist and is barred from office. Roberts hands a printed summary to TFG and the just sworn in VP and proceeds to swear the VP in as president.
High drama.
High drama indeed.
Sadly, we would still end up with some reprehensible MAGAt republican president. Someone like Gym Jordan or Gaetz. And rump would still be pulling their strings, like the manager just thrown out of the game by the ump, hiding in the dugout tunnel and barking orders.
Let's make sure that none of these nightmare scenarios ever come to pass.
VOTE BLUE!
I’ve on occasion contemplated that very scenario. Two buffers come to mind:
1. Before Inauguration Day, the Electoral College must meet and the vote certified. We could be looking at Jan 6 deja vu.
2. If for some reason events proceed past #1, it’s the scenario you state. The VP is sworn in before the president. The Chief Justice could then immediately swear in the new VP as president.
I doubt either scenario will come to pass. I need to go back and refresh on the constitution and the internal workings of the electoral college vote, but it might be possible for the electors to only cast their VP electoral votes.
Constitutional quagmire.
If the 14th Amendment bars Trump, then how does it apply to the members of the US Congress who also sought to overturn the election?
Why are you calling an amendment that was acted in 1874 a “new” idea? Added to ensure that no one who was part of a secession from the Federal government could afterwards run and gain public office, I cannot see that enrolling white nationalists and KKK and their ilk to be members of a political party is not a little on the treasonous side to begin with. Maybe the Republican Party needs to be treated like any other addict and be confronted with the consequences of their choices to try and re-invent the constitution in order keep themselves in power.
I put in the wrong date for this amendment, it was done in 1868.
Trump is just a reflection of the American dysfunction whether you're one of voters who put him there or not. You can't kill your own shadow. You can only embrace your own suffering.
So, it bars insurrectionists from office. It doesn't bar them from the ballot. If Malia Obama wins as a write-in candidate, she still can't be president because she's 25. If Stephen Colbert wins as a write-in candidate, he can't be president because he was born in Canada. If Donald Trump wins, he can't be president because he supported an insurrection. Does that mean his running mate becomes president and selects a vice President? Does Congress decide? It would be the 118th Congress because the new congress members have not been sworn in. Are there enough outgoing Republicans and RINOs to do it? In 2017, they thought they could control him, now they know they can't. They also know that in an authoritarian government, they lose power. The evangelicals that vote also lose power because Trump no longer needs their votes. The Judicial Branch loses power. Mike Johnson would have to call them into session, if he is still Speaker.
Just a nit here, Stephen Colbert was born in Washington, D.C.
thanks for your correction,
“But the pessimist in me worries that no matter how Trump is defeated—either by operation of law or the ballot box—his supporters will simply never accept the outcome.”
Pessimist? You mean realist.
Of *course* Trump’s cultists will not accept the outcome. They’ve said so. In plain English. Repeatedly.
Why don’t you believe them?
The way I read the 14th Amendment, he can run but even if he runs - he can't win. Either way - it's going to be up to the Supreme Ct. to make the final decision.
And The Eternal . .
Is The Teflon Don losing some slick?
Folks a mite tired of escalating Shtick . .
The Alight Down There . . Chosen One Heil Hair!
striking more and more as Silly/Sick ..
Victim Baggage . .. # quietly over with . ..
All the legal arguments and the possibilities are fascinating and seem frustratingly endless. No one imagined such a candidate being President, because anyone with an ounce of integrity would withdraw. Diaper Don is now accusing his republican contenders of cheating if they win; everyone cheats except DD. The old tea party are all toss pots.
I read somewhere that a lot of the GOP live in fear of Trump not to mention a few Military people. Maybe there are more in the GOP who won't vote for him because of this fear?
trump's arguments in this case are right up there with "I can change the constitution by executive order" (birthright citizenship).
Evening, I have a question. StinkyPantsSmallHands just filed in kennebec County appealing Bellow’s ruling. Why file in County court? Do Maine rules say u have to start a lawsuit there? Or, is Kennebec County where plaintiffs have to file to sue the State?
Thanks, Susan (from Maine)
“enemies thereof”. Of the thing just mentioned..Not enemies of the U.S. in general..As in North Korea or Russia..Those that took part in the insurrection or rebellion..just mentioned in the sentence above.. It is plain language..It seems that arguments are being made out of whole cloth that have nothing to do with Sec 3 of the 14th..
On the question of standing, (and I realize the optics of this) couldn't the Biden campaign be easily able to argue it suffers harm should TFG's name be on the general election ballot in a state?
Again, I recognize the political optics of that. I just don't think that such an argument (made by private lawyers without the use of the DOJ or other federal resources) would really make things that much worse. The GOP has already proven itself incapable and uninterested in governing. Unlike in 1860, secession isn't a realistic threat because MAGA state economies can't survive without the federal government, including federal $ that supports private industry like weapons manufacturers. Their state level politicians know it, they just won't say it publicly.