The Big Q&A With Ruth Ben-Ghiat

Professor Ruth Ben-Ghiat, an expert on the history of fascism and authoritarianism, answers questions from George and Team Takei.

Today, it is my great honor to interview Professor Ruth Ben-Ghiat as a guest on the Big Q&A. She teaches History and Italian at New York University and writes about fascism, authoritarianism, propaganda, and democracy protection.

As fascism and authoritarianism are on the rise, even here in the United States, it’s more important than ever that we recognize the warning signs and understand how fascist movements have risen and been defeated before. Professor Ben-Ghiat answers my questions today on this critical subject. — George Takei

You’ve written and spoken eloquently about the rise of modern fascist movements. Many Americans are unfamiliar with the dangers of fascism within our own borders, but I am not. As a child, fascism came to our family’s home when we were ordered out of our homes at gunpoint and sent to internment camps simply because of our ethnic heritage. Today, I hear echoes of some of the same rhetoric of those dark days in our politics again. Do you hear the same echoes, and what if anything about the state of the U.S. today sometimes keeps you up at night?

I worry about the incitements to violence being put forth by sitting lawmakers and Trump himself. Because we have a unique situation in which hundreds of millions of guns are in civilian hands, it is not difficult to imagine how political violence could spread. I don't foresee a civil war in the classic sense, but rather a "strategy of tension" with constant violence of the type we already see (politically and racially motivated mass shootings, attacks on lawmakers and judges, journalists, etc). As you well know we have that history of Fascism and Trump would quickly find a reason to declare a state of emergency so he could take "exceptional measures" as have been done before in a state of war.

I also worry about polarization and now is the time to reach out to family and acquaintances who are in the "disinformation tunnel," as I call it. It is difficult and unpleasant work to deal with these people but it is important to try and connect with them. As the sociologist Jacques Ellul wrote, propaganda stops where dialogue begins.  

Did the election of Donald Trump in 2016 open the door for a larger fascist movement to take shape in the U.S., or were the seeds of this already sown? How does the modern GOP play a part, and even beyond that, is this part of a global fascist rise?

Since I am not a historian of America, it has been a learning experience for me as well to understand how many Fascist movements took root in America and how extensive networks of far-right and anti-government extremists are today. Trump, like other strongmen, immediately signaled to all these people that he would value them and uphold their interests and ideologies. So those movements have surged, the Proud Boys in particular, and have drawn closer to the GOP, which has deep ties with Oath Keepers and other such groups. The GOP is now an autocratic party and these extremists are its de facto paramilitary wing. Many are resistant to seeing the GOP in this light but everything the party does today is legible through authoritarianism --not least the shameful spectacle of the first GOP presidential contenders debate where all but two candidates humiliated themselves by pledging to support Trump, their rival, even if he becomes a convicted felon. This was a loyalty performance on live TV, something straight out of the history of autocracy.

We are seeing what seem like mini laboratories of authoritarianism in states controlled by the GOP, particularly in Florida and Texas. The governors and legislatures there have attacked the rights and lives of women, racial minorities, migrants, and LGBTQs. What does history tell us about where this is headed, and what should we citizens do in response?

This is the logical extension of Trumpism given that Trump is no longer in office: the agenda is now fulfilled by the states and being a mini-Trump spouting violent rhetoric is seen by DeSantis and others as the way to get ahead in the party. The Texas GOP does not even recognize the authority of President Joe Biden; a 2022 resolution calls him an illegitimate and "acting" president. Where does a party go when its leading contender instigated a coup attempt and issues death threats on a regular basis against anyone he feels can harm him, and the second leading contender (DeSantis) says he will be "slitting throats" on his first day in office? GOP 2024 is a race to the bottom.

I’ve often heard the phrase, “We are sleepwalking our way toward authoritarian rule.” Are ordinary Americans in your view blind to the dangers our democracy faces, or are you optimistic that the electorate has woken up to the danger?

My research shows that every culture is unprepared for an authoritarian assault, and that even when one takes place, and certain groups are targeted, other groups think "they'll never go after me." This was the case with Italian Jews, who thought Mussolini would not target them because he was not like Hitler. So they stayed in Italy and even when the anti-Semitic persecution started in 1938 relatively few left the country at first.

Americans are particularly prone to the "it can't happen here" syndrome. Some feel American democracy can withstand anything; others, for example many immigrants, are attached to the idea that America will always be a refuge for those fleeing persecution elsewhere. It is too upsetting to think that nowhere is safe. But of course America was not safe for almost half the country that had no voting or civil rights until the 1960s; it was not safe for Japanese-Americans during World War Two, and it is not safe for a growing number of groups today who are targets of hate crimes, from Asian Americans to LGBTQ individuals to Jews, immigrants, and Blacks.

That said, I think the experience of the Trump presidency and Jan. 6 coup attempt shook many out of their complacency and they are seeing that the GOP has turned into an autocratic force and mobilizing against it. There is a renaissance of civic protest going on in statehouses, for example, with new alliances of Democratic lawmakers and grassroots organizers. And one of my maxims is: Never Underestimate the American People.

With so many indictments in so many jurisdictions against the former president, many are hoping that legal accountability will spell the end of MAGA Trumpism. Do you see hope in that, or are we only that the beginning of a much longer struggle?

The indictments and other judgments against Trump and his co-conspirators are absolutely crucial to restore faith in our democratic institutions and uphold the rule of law. No one is unaccountable, is the lesson here. That said, like authoritarians for a century Trump is making political capital from the restraints on his lawlessness, claiming it is all a "witch hunt." Guess who also used that phrase? Mussolini, Netanyahu, Erdogan, Berlusconi...it is part of the script of playing the hero who is taking personal risks on behalf of the nation. Unfortunately, when such leaders feel their power is threatened or they might go to jail, they become desperate and resort to violence - we saw that on Jan. 6. Because Trump has been able to radicalize millions and dominate the GOP, we are in for a longer struggle to contain hatred and uphold the rule of law. The GOP continues Trump's work and so even if he goes to jail the party continues.

If you could tell our readers one thing about what you have learned in your years of studying and speaking about authoritarianism and fascism, what would that be?

Authoritarians do their best to get us to feel that it is hopeless to resist, that we should just submit to their aggressions and self-censor. That's because authoritarians live in fear of those they govern and know how powerful mass nonviolent opposition in all its forms can be. So we should never give up hope that things can change, that our actions can bear fruit, and that we can bring another future into being.

Professor Ruth Ben-Ghiat is the recipient of Guggenheim and other fellowships, an advisor to Protect Democracy, and an MSNBC opinion columnist. She appears frequently on MSNBC, PBS, and other networks.

You can subscribe to Ruth Ben-Ghiat’s Substack, Lucid, here.