In 2016, there were a lot of Bernie supporters who were adamant that there was no real difference between Trump and 'Killary'. They couldn't/wouldn't forgive her vote in the senate to authorize the use of force in Iraq. It was all they could see. No other issue mattered to them.
No amount of pointing out the fact that the Supreme Court majority was hanging in the balance moved them. No amount of pointing out Trump's glaring racism, misogyny, vulgarity, and unfitness for office made a difference. In the end, we all paid the price for their intransigence.
But here's what we need to remember: the student protesters aren't the only Americans who care about what's happening in Gaza. Many Americans, of different political persuasions, care, too. Myself, included. We hold Israel responsible for the starvation and sickness pervasive in Gaza as a result of this war; we hold them responsible for turning whole cities into rubble, for displacing millions of innocent civilians and for all the unnecessary civilian deaths. But we also hold Hamas responsible for disregarding human life, for committing war crimes like rape and murder, and for taking hostages as human shields. The issue of Gaza and Israel isn't as simple as some would have it.
With that said, though, the threat posed by Trump hasn't diminished - and he couldn't care less what happens to the people of Gaza. He would be more than happy to let an autocrat like Netanyahu have a free hand and not give it a second thought. Anymore than he would bat an eye over Putin taking over Ukraine.
Having witnessed what we all went through with Trump in the White House after the 2016 election, it's very hard for me to comprehend how people can lose perspective over a single issue to the point of allowing Trump to even have a chance at regaining power.
I think Biden needs to accept their findings, if they find Israeli government officials, including Netanyahu, culpable, without dithering about it. (We also can't know if he's already used backchannels to encourage this).
The other thing people don't think about is that presidential elections are pretty much always between two centrists (the criminality of Trump is an outlier). Left wingers like me will never see their ideal candidate. This is rarely talked about for some reason. It's reality. I've been voting for 45 years. It's always which centrist people are willing to have a beer with.
The only thing that has changed about that is that the centrism needle has moved far to the right during the last 40 years. Obama would be a moderate Republican if you put him into the 1970s body politic. Nixon actually proposed a national health care program and started the EPA. The tax tables were completely different. They had loopholes, but the wealthy paid a lot more than they do now. And so on.
While the US isn't a signatory to the International Criminal Court, I agree that as a matter of upholding the rule of law and the international order, the US should accept its findings - even if it includes Netanyahu [which, FTR, I think lots of Israelis would welcome].
I don't think I've ever voted for my 'ideal' candidate. I doubt anybody has. But I've often voted for the person I think is best suited for the job. I'm not looking for perfection, just good. And decent.
I am not sure how Israelis got stuck with Netanyahu. I do know who his supporters are in Israel, but are they the dominant group or was something else at play. I would love to understand the situation better.
The Israelis have long had security concerns. Reasonable people can argue about the origins of the Israeli state, and that's a complex issue because after the WW2, world powers were desperate to find some answer for the millions of Jews who were killed not just by Hitler, but by pogroms throughout East Europe that the holocaust was sort of a culmination of.
Anti-semitism is, for some reason, very real, and its worst applications were horrendous enough for world powers to form a state on what was essentially Palestinian soil. Things have been ugly ever since then.
Netanyahu is a child of Likud, which is Israel's dominant conservative party that gained power under Menachem Begin, who was himself the first hardcore settlements dude to really be able to exert real power regarding settlement extremism. By that I mean that he pushed hard on the concept of expanding Jewish settlements into the West Bank and Golan Heights. After he perished, I figured the worst was over, especially after the Oslo Accords. Instead, Yitzhak Rabin, the Labor Prime Minister who oversaw the peace effort, was assassinated by an ultra right winger in 1995.
After the assassination, with a few exceptions from a couple of weak Labor prime ministers, Israel has consistently elected pretty hard core right wingers — Netanyahu twice. The liberal-minded Labor Party is still a force, but it's been neutered significantly in recent years.
You might not be surprised to learn that Netanyahu very possibly had something to do with Rabin's assassination. A few weeks prior, Netanyahu attended a political rally where Rabin was decried as a traitor and murder for having the gall to seek peace with the Palestinians.
Ben Gvir, the current head of security in Israel for Netanyahu now, and who is an ultra-far right fascist, said at one time about Rabin, "We got to his car, and we’ll get to him, too,” in reference to some hanky panky I guess he did regarding Rabin's car during some other protests.
A prominent Israeli politician, a woman whose name I can't remember, accused Netanyahu outright of participating in Rabin's assassination. I'd research more on that if I had more time, but hopefully that gives you an idea.
In many ways, Israel has suffered the same way we have. A jolt to the right. We've made some progress in social norms, such as LGBTQ+ rights, but they are on fragile ground, and the backlash has been tremendous, and now the courts are stacked with right wing hooligans.
Bibi has been a "whole of Judea and Samaria" guy for his entire political career (and probably before that). He was decidely anti-Oslo until he couldn't stop it and he saw how popular it was. There were plenty of mistakes made with Oslo, including arming the PA and then there was the unilateral decision to withdraw from Gaza, which ended up strengthening Hamas and PIJ and weakening that very same PA in internecine conflict. I've read varying accounts regarding Bibi's involvement in covertly supporting both sides of that but I don't have enough verified information despite its seeming plausibility. The fact remains that the Palestinian people and all their various factions are the only ones who can free themselves and determine their own path. They have been used as willing pawns and proxies of the arab states and Iran over the last several decades to cling to the fantastic project of destroying or diminishing Israel. Unless US supremacy is replaced in the next century (a real possibility) it is manifest that the best the Palestinians can ever hope for in the coming decades is a two-state solution. There will be no compromise on a right of return to Israel proper because it is simply a demographic path to destroying Israel as a safe haven for Jews. As things stand, if Israel remains a vibrant, mostly democratic entity, the Arab-Israeli population may end up irreversably altering that condition over the next few decades. The unfortunate reality is that, as horrendously difficult as it has been for the Palestinians, they will need to accept incremental gains in order to ever secure anything that looks like peace. The main reason is that the prime directive of the Israeli state is and always has been the continued existence of the Jews. It might seem far-fetched to many people in the relative comfort of the post-WWII era but the history of humanity has shown that anti-semitism is endemic. If Israel ceases to exist, it is a certainty that Jews will eventually suffer pogroms, marginilization, and genocide again.
Personally, I'd be in favor of a THREE state solution. Gaza, West Bank, and Israel, with Jerusalem as an international city of some kind administered by the UN. All three Abrahamic religions have legitimate and important presences there.
A three state solution would more thoroughly neutralize Hamas in the West Bank, at least, and would be easier from an administrative standpoint than a single Palestinian entity that tries to govern two disparate territories split by Israeli territory.
I agree that a 2 state solution is the only one that seems right. I agree that Jews need a space to feel safe, and while England made the determination where, since at the end of WWII the US and Europe were still anti-Semitic and were not good places to go, Israel was the best place. Although some Jews stayed in Europe, and many went to the USA, most went to Israel. Arabs are Semites too, so that is a misnomer if it is just referring to Jews. So, the people of the Middle East are Semitic and anti-Semitism seems to affect reactions to them all from certain Christians. Self determination for Gazans sounds good, but how realistic is it? For example, do women in Gaza get self determination too? Or, will they be living like women in Saudi Arabia and others of the region with subservience to men? It does not seem like easy solutions which is why there have been none. Having Hamas and Netanyahu negotiating the conditions under which people in the area will live seems to make it even harder, but not any less necessary.
Good comment, Charles; thank you. I’m an American expat living in France, and from here I can tell you that even Biden would be considered center-right overall (and, unfortunately, far-right on the Israel-Gaza issue). Here’s a telling point: France’s main “far right” party is National Rally, with Marine LePen as leader. Political scientists who study global politics point out that the National Rally party is not as far right as the Republican Party in the US. And for all the risible blathering from the MAGAts about the “socialist Hell hole” that is France, the country has plenty of wealthy capitalists, including one of the five richest men in the world, Bernard Arnault. It’s just that France has about 1/3 the number of billionaires per capita as the US does, the result of a modestly more-progressive tax structure than the US’ heavily wealth-skewed tax system. In return, we get universal health care, affordable housing and education. And, notably ,women’s access to abortion was just enshrined in national law—the first country in the world to do so. That’s what’s possible—with Biden, if the Dems take Congress as well as the White House. Otherwise, the US starts to look a lot more like Hungary or, dare I say it, Russia.
Thanks for the perspective from France. I'm in my 60s, and I've always been a frustrated lefty. However, I long ago made peace with the fact that my fellow Americans are more centrist than I am. Centrist presidents will always rule the day.
What my fellow lefties don't seem to understand is that if they really want change, they'll need to fight a little harder to fill the bench. This means voting in local elections. People, especially young people, just don't seem willing to take that simple step.
As for Biden's foreign policy — it is simply the foreign policy that has dominated both parties since WW2. Ironically, the only person around who seems willing to challenge that bedrock is the ultimate nutcase, and that's really more because he's a shit disturber than because he has any real rationalization behind anything he does.
Can you imagine red states passing seat belt laws these days? All their citizens would be like bug splatter on the insides of their windshields.
For you young folks: There was a day, before the insect apocalypse, where when you drove for long periods. your windshield would be full of dead bugs. This no longer happens because we've killed off so many. Luckily, we're about to be saved by cicadas! :-)
yes...all the critters that feast on bugs should get filled up this year!!! At least in areas that harbor cicadas! We Mainers are looking for tick and black fly eaters!
Genocide abroad or genocide at home? As a transgender woman I feel like those who vote or abstain against Biden are voting for genocide against the transgender population, the slaughter of children in our schools as well as those who would try to find refuge in the United States from the kind of government the right-wingers here and abroad continue to usher in. Those who give in to anger and frustration may think they are standing on principals, but their will still be blood on their hands regardless. We can't fix these problems of injustice if we keep allowing the facists to manipulate our votes so as to put them back in power.
Yeah, well voting is sort of like taking the bus home: you can’t hold out for the bus that drops you in front of your house, but you take the one that gets you closest.
Voting is a Lever Switch, to get that Person in Seat of Power With Whom you have the Most Leverage, so you can Get Things that You Want Done. It is Not, nor should be a part of Your Identity or moral image of yourself.
The only difference will be, those who do not vote by above principle will lose. The only difference between 'anti biden' progressives and MAGA Trumpists will be that MAGA Trumpists will Mindlessly Vote for their Cult leader and WIN, Everyone else WILL LOSE, the 'anti-biden' progressives will be left alone in their Moral High Tower to complain. Their ability to complain along with all the Progressive Causes will be Destroyed as DEMOCRACY WILL DIE.
The statement is not personally for you since you already were voting biden and is the worst understanding you could have gotten from the simple statements made above.
My points simply are,
Voting is not a statement of your identity or ideals, it is a mechanism to realistically deliver your most preferable outcomes.
Preserve democracy first only then an option exists to make changes in future.
For you personally, I agree, no need to put anyone at any altar, voting biden and blue, doing what you can to preserve democracy is enough.
How about those who hold Hanas, a terrorist organization & one dedicated not to peace but to wiping out Israeli Jews, responsible? What do we say to them?
Where is the coverage of Jewish students in the Free Palestine movement? Netanyahu is facing daily protests but we don't see that on the news networks. Why?
Netanyahu has been criminally indicted (by an Israeli court) and is desperate to keep this war going (might even have played a role in instigating it) because as long as he stays in office, he can avoid jail. He knows that people won’t easily change leaders under conditions of war even when the majority of Israelis oppose him.
🤦🏻♂️the world already knows that one, yet did you know Netanyahu anted the same thing for Palestinine? Wake up and use facts from both sides, Israel isn’t the good guy either under netanyahu.
Where did I say that Israel under Netanyahu is the good guy? 🤦♀️ As for “the world already knows that one,” maybe “the world” knows it, but if they do, they DGAF about Hamas’ murderous intentions. Because you didn’t mention that Hamas wants Israel gone, I mentioned it, to add to what you wrote.
I heard that from my leftist friends and there is not a point they made that I allowed them to get away with. I did acknowledge that I understood that they were upset that Bernie was not the candidate, and pointed out that when I vote I pick candidates that not only agree with many of the positions I have, but also seem like they can get things done. While I am not saying people were jumping up and suddenly agreeing with me, at least they were silent and it was clearly reflectively.
Bringing up the "Bernie supporters" who didn't step up and help to block Trump in 2016 cuts right to the heart of the matter. Many of them went even farther and have literally defied the reasoning and appeals by Bernie himself for unity, because they felt like it and know better than anyone. My unscientific and subjective experience has shown that few if any of those who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton hold themselves personally accountable for the tiniest sliver of responsibility for Trump being inflicted on not only the nation but the world. We now find ourselves in an even worse situation than the direst predictions, and the worst is yet to come. But none of them own it.
And now we have a whole new batch of impatient foot-stampers ready to let it all burn down around us, just to show us they "mean business" and must be obeyed.
If we fail at the opportunity to practice Democracy this time, I will simply accept the judgment of history, and write it all off as a doomed experiment. If we can't see our way through a choice like this, then we collectively deserve it.
You raise a very good point, Sam. Most Bernie supporters did put aside their differences with the Clinton campaign and vote for her in 2016. However, a large enough segment didn't that it made a difference in swing states. They argued that voting was a sort of passive activity where a candidate had to 'earn' their support in order to get them off their backsides to vote, rather than an active exercise of civic engagement and responsibility where they were obligated to evaluate both candidates and vote for the one they agreed with on most things - or in the alternative, against the one they disagreed with on nearly everything. That group of Bernie supporters absolutely rejected the fact that non-votes worked to the benefit of Donald Trump, and that's why they refused to accept accountability later.
We were in a situation in 2020 where most people clearly saw the danger posed by Trump's continued presence at the top of the executive branch. The damage he did just in all the lives unnecessarily lost to COVID can never be undone. And he's threatening to do much worse if he gets back in power. People get tired of hearing that we face an existential threat in the form of Trump and MAGA, but we do. We've lost the Supreme Court to extremists, 3 of whom were appointed by Trump. As a result women have lost their rights of personal autonomy and privacy to any bunch of elected yahoos with an agenda.
I hope that most of today's foot-stampers have a chance to cool off and regain their perspective before November's election, because there's more at stake than the outcome in Gaza and Israel. And their entire generation will have to live with the consequences.
Says the person standing up for the Unpunished Traitor Hillary Rodham Clinton.
You lot make me sick with your continuding to stand by The Mistress of NeoLiberal Evil while bad-mouthing one of the few genuinely GOOD people in politics, Bernie Sanders! What, does her calling him a "Comminist!"(sic.) give you your Cold War jollies like they clearly give that ex-Goldwater Girl?
I am horrified by what is happening in Gaza. I get the frustration so many have. I wonder how many people understand that one problem is that Israel’s destruction of Gaza is not happening in a vacuum. I believe part of the reason the US has continued to give aid to Israel is that abandoning Israel now could very well send signals that we don’t want to send. Iran and Israel have been exchanging drone attacks. Houthis in Yemen have been attacking shipping. A signal that the US is leaving Israel on its own may further destabilize the region that is already barely functional. Would that be better? I doubt it. For the most part the only thing the majority of Muslim countries and groups in that region only agree on one thing — hatred of Israel. But they are not known for having much better views on each other. I hate Netanyahu with almost the same passion I hate tRump. I hope and pray that this administration and allies from Europe can get through to Netanyahu and bring this to an end. I’m not sure it will happen. I think that the current prime minister of Israel is an evil man. It’s been clear from the start that he has no conscience with regard to the Palestinians. Honestly, I don’t think he gives a rats ass about most Israelis. He is concerned only with himself and the people he believes can keep him in power.
I agree with you Kate!! I don't want to sound like some of those conspirator people, but I had thoughts that what if evil Netanyahu ignored the signs of Hamas attack on purpose, to cause a conflict with Gaza, to deflect from him for his own purposes and cause trouble for Biden in an election year? He would "love" to have Trump back in his corner! Maybe stir in a bit of Putin since it takes away from the war in Ukraine? What a mess, wish those 3, Putin. Netanyahu and Trump would just vanish from our world!
It's not as conspiracy-theorish as it seems. They got an awful lot of warning that is pretty well documented. And this is a man who is at least as craven as Trump, if not more.
I don't think you have to dive into conspiracy theories to see the plain truth that this war has benefited Netanyahu's political and legal fortunes. It's not outside the realm of possibility that keeping it going - such as the saber rattling he's doing as the administration and our allies are pushing hard for a ceasefire from Israel while pressuring Hamas for a release of the hostages - is his way of doing just that.
Most Israelis are furious at him and his administration for failing to keep the country safe.
I think it has been shown that there is more than meets the eye here. I’m Jewish and try to understand but this, no… relating to the attacks on Gaza. But I do find it hard to grasp how so many (especially college protesters) can’t seem to see that Gaza is not an independent issue. Many of us may feel that the biggest issue has been keeping as close to peace as possible in order to keep oil prices somewhat stable. But if you add climate change and the Paris agreements in, right or wrong, so much is at stake. And I cannot see a winning argument to letting this escalate.
Us speaking to them is not the problem, the administration NOT speaking to them is. I am far more worried about a repeat of the 1968 Democratic Convention disaster than anything else. There will be protests, and if we have another case of protesters being arrested; that will be bad. The DNC and Biden/Harris campaign should reach out before the convention, and invite key people TO the convention. If there is another riot like in 68, it will be all over the news - overshadowing the convention.
I was in Philly during the 2016 Democratic National Convention, and the Bernie Bro/anti-Hillary people were everywhere. But, they didn't end up disrupting the convention to any large degree. I agree that having people from the Biden/Harris campaign reach out is a good idea, and I suspect that's going on already. The big question is if anyone from the other side is willing to reach back.
Since no response by Biden I’m confirming to myself that the race is between two senile men. However, I’m not an unrealistic zealot like Bernie supporters who like other third party voters rationalize to not admit their’s was just a wasted protest vote and as with Trump resulted in extreme damage to this country.
Old =/= senile. Trmp is senile. Biden is not doing diplomacy in front of cameras, because there are so many moving parts (AKA sides/people). Grow up, dude.
There's ZERO evidence that President Biden is senile. None. On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence that Donald Trump is suffering from dementia.
The Russian troll farms are having a field day with people like you Jim. Disinformation and misinformation. Saying Biden is senile is exactly what the Russian troll farms love. Embarrassing.
One problem. I’m pretty immune to propaganda no matter where it is coming from. I see I’m getting some hostile blowback from my comment, which I do not remember what I said. A little subtext:
I was in the service during the Viet Nam war as a medic and I have watched people die. I was against that war recognizing how stupid it was and knowing Charles DeGaul forced us into it stating that if we didn’t go into the war he would align France with the Soviets.
I listened to my fellow Americans discuss how we should nuke all the gooks rather than lose the life of one white American. Not proud to be an American. I was threatened for stating my views which I kept giving and had to do a lot of extra duty for it.
Got stationed in San Francisco in 1967, the Summer of Love. I thought I could go to some hippy places for intellectual conversations but no, I was disliked because I must be a baby killer since I was in the service. Besides, it turns out many of the flower children were there to avoid the draft and were just enjoying the sex, drugs and rock n roll. I accurately predicted that once the war was over most would go back to their middle and upper class lives.
I got out and started college. I saw demonstrations against the war that tore this country apart and saw how a weak and effete DEMOCRATIC PARTY gave us Richard Millhouse Nixon. A scum bag.
I watched how Biden did nothing when scumball Republicans were disgusting towards Anita Hill even though he was there to provide some cover. So we got Clarence Thomas on the SCROTUS.
Biden appointed a weak AG when he became president who sat on his ass when we had maniac Trump still running around.
I will give you that I was intemperance calling Biden senile. However, he may be, none of us know for sure.
OK, so you can guess my approximate age by what I have revealed. I can unequivocally say IMO, at his age he is doing this country a disservice running for president. He is doing nothing substantial to stop genocide. I’m embarrassed by my country as I find the Republicans totally repugnant and the Democrats better but still not worthy of my respect.
The Democrats have many extremists that are mirror images of the crazy Republicans. I do not like where I see our country headed.
So those who want to attack my opinion, I could give a shit less.
... and WAY before 1948. But the current carnage started with an attack on Israel on 10/7 fomented by *thousands* of years of conflict (and oppression), including the "crusades". It will probably take a 'messiah' to quell the hatred in that region (and spreading).
Then how about weeks or months before the attack. Palestinians being murdered, Israel broke the Ceasefire, and information has come out that Israel knew about Hamas attack a year in advance. Netanyahu wanted it to happen, and helped it along by slaughtering his own citizens that day, and immediately printing falsehoods about beheaded babies and rape.
I’m not gonna do your homework, look it up, or just watch interviews with Baseem, he states these facts and brings the data.
This has been news for 5 months, check more independent news sources that aren’t pro Zionist. Tik Tok is a great resource for Gaza news sources which is the main reason it is being banned.
That explains a lot. TikTok is literally being used to spread Hamas propaganda to people like you who aren’t even attempting to parse the information critically. There is absolutely a misuse by foreign adversaries happening on that app.
I suspect that the reason Joe is adamant about continuing military support to Israel has much more to do with the fact that Israel is the main buffer against Iran in that region. Biden supported the Iran nuclear deal, which held promise, but of course that's dead, and Iran is a real threat. I also think he is much more concerned about the American hostages than the public realizes. The reason Blinken gave for the US voting repeatedly in the UN against ceasefire resolutions is that they didn't contain language addressing the hostages. Biden's continuing support for Israel despite the bad publicity is neither random nor knee jerk.
I think Iran has shown a lot of restraint against ongoing Israel attacks. They seem to be the ones who do not want war, unlike US and Israel. US has military strongholds all over the Middle East, and yet Americans never want to see themselves as the instigators or bad guys.
Iran helped Hamas attack Israel on October 7, in part to ultimately help Trump. They knew that Netanyahu would go ballistic and in doing so incur the world’s justifiable wrath (a wrath that, somehow, never seems to arise against other tyrants who murder millions of their own people, all over the world). They knew that many people here would hold Biden accountable for supporting Israel. I guess I’m saying the obvious….
What world are you in, Iran and Putin helped Hamas attack Israel on October 7. One ultimate goal is to use our justifiable outrage at Netanyahu’s counterattacks to hold Biden accountable for continuing to support Israel. Anyone who won’t vote for Biden despite this support of Israel is in effect just another of Putin’s many puppets.
I agree. While I support the right to to protest and hate what is happening in Gaza I just wish there was as much impassioned protest for what’s going on in THIS country especially in regards to Women losing their rights.
I hope I am not alone in thinking Biden could and SHOULD do more to stop Israel, like cut ties for 60 days, but I will still vote for him in November.
The alternative is UNTHINKABLE. I don't think anyone ever said Joe Biden was perfect---he sure isn't, but if you want to put the two men side by each, Joe Biden is a caring man, a moral man, mostly, and an ethical one, again, mostly.
I think you are angry, very understandably so, but I do think President Biden is empathetic and mostly a stand up person. He is not in charge in Israel. The Israelis are. I think he is working for the best possible solution for the region along with many others, while attempting to maintain support for the only democracy in the Middle East.Pretty huge job. I agree with the commenter who indicated that Biden should accept the findings of the International Criminal Court without dither. I hope he does. I hope a lasting ceasefire can be accomplished. I hope the Israelis can vote Netananyu and his faction out.
I hope we can be rid of Trump. This being first for me as a US citizen. Our vote is all we have. It is our voice. I won’t waste mine and risk loosing that voice entirely.
I am a liberal left of center democrat that has voted in every election and never voted Republican. I donated to Democrats every election and volunteered for some local campaigns. I marched in the Women’s March and the March for Science.
I am sickened by what is happening in Gaza. I don’t know how we can work against Russia in their war but support Israel in theirs. The same tactics and lack of humanity. And do not call me antisemitic. I am not against Jewish people but I am against the actions Israel is taking against the Palestinians. I was appalled by the Hamas attack as well but Israel’s actions are so much worse (1139 dead v 32,943). I resent my taxes supporting this mass targeted genocide.
Democratic leadership gets it wrong when they say it is the hard progressives turning on Biden for his stand. My friends and family are politically aligned with me. There are a lot of us middle to left leaning voters that feel the same. I look at him differently now, not the good old caring grandpa persona that is projected but a politician that seems indifferent to the war crimes being committed by Israel.
I will vote Democrat and for Biden but without enthusiasm but will not donate or volunteer this election.
I’m sure I will get some haters responding that have an absolute loyalty to Israel no matter what, as I have seen attacks and intolerance against differing opinions like mine in other threads. But our voices should be heard too.
I don’t believe we support an ally or friendly nation no matter what. That support should have boundaries and when behaviors or actions cross the line then our support stops. Not dissimilar to support for Germany until Hitler took over. Things and circumstances can change and our support should not be absolute.
I very much doubt that Biden does not care about the war crimes being committed by Israel. How much he can do about it unilaterally and within the realm of the politically possible is another matter entirely.
If polls really show voters will.vote for Biden despite his refusal to stop sending weapons of war to Netanyahu (even as proof he's serious about Gaza,) no wonder he is sticking to his guns. Biden is political first and last. It's his greatest strength and his biggest weakness. If he persists in enabling genocide I won't be able to bring myself to vote for him. If the ICC doesn't stop Netanyahu's war crimes, then hopefully Jill Stein and the Green Party will become a real threat between now and November so no American has to vote for genocide.
Jay Kuo: No wonder Gore Vidal called America the "United States of Amnesia."
Admittedly, I am 76-years-old.
1968 is quite vivid to me. As vivid as events two months ago.
The Left was totally against the War. (At that time, "THE War" meant one thing: Vietnam.)
A difference, of course, is that WE were there and I was in the draft age-group.
Then Chicago happened; Mayor Daley's police battered peaceful protesters.
So, the people voted AGAINST a good and sound man -- who, apparently, had opposed expansion of THE War behind the scenes, namely, Hubert Horatio Humphrey.
God, I still love that man.
So, who did they vote for?!
Why, Dick Nixon, OF COURSE.
Are we repeating the terrible mistakes of that time?!
A left-winger -- count me IN (I count myself an Elizabeth-Warren Democrat; my alternative is Bernie Sanders -- that is MY Wing.)
So, because of the terrors in Gaza, my wing would SERIOUSLY, at THIS time, withhold support from today's HHH (Biden, within the Obama administration, had been a relative peace advocate)?!
REALLY?!
THIS is THE TIME to protest vote AGAINST the Democrat?!
I must be living in "Alice Through the Looking Glass!"
Maybe I need a few of Alice's mushrooms to wax tall and to shrink to mouse-size and grow tall again and Jabber-Wocky and "Off with their heads" shouted the Queen.
What a TIME we are living in!
Look: October 7th was a horrendous act of terror committed by genocidal mass-murderers.
Benjamin Netanyahu, in revenge, conducts major air strikes against . . . READY?! -- hospitals, refugee camps, ambulances, Orthodox Churches, Mosques . . . and massively kills children and non-combatants.
It is quite RIGHT to dissent from Netanyahu's war CRIMES.
I was an Air Force (Reserve) Judge Advocate who had to master and teach the Law of War, so I know these are war crimes and I renounce and condemn them.
Still, Israel must exist -- for after the Shoah one must defend Israel forever and such terror and genocide must never be allowed to occur. Not ever, NEVER again!
I would welcome all Jews throughout the world right here in America.
The two thoughts are complex, but they coexist. Hamas consists of genocidal terrorists. Israel is right to decapitate the leadership. But Israel has in a very vile way wrought massive death to children, women and noncombatants, which must be stopped, must be CONDEMNED, and for which Netanyahu must be held accountable.
These values are complex, but they tend towards protecting the inestimable value of human life.
Our election system gives us two choices: Biden, who is TRYING to mitigate and mediate the Middle-Eastern War in a humane way (and who faces terrible hurdles), and, the UNTHINKABLE!
Agree with every word you wrote, Jay. Spot on! We have this age cohort in our family, and one of them lodged a "protest" vote in the MI primary. That's OK. We said it was smart to have your say and voice, so their vote in November must be for Biden to PRESERVE their right to protest THEIR government's actions when they disagree. That hit home -- an additional element for the conversation. This is the crux of democracy; the right to free speech and to peacefully protest. 100%
Thank you for this, I've been wondering myself if this conflict wasn't going to hand this election to Trump. Hopefully your suggestions will help mend some rifts. I still find it a great concern.
For those concerned about the college campus protests and potential "no votes for Biden," and whether that will impact all young voters, here's a viewpoint from someone in the young voters age group, thoughtfully presented.
"The youth vote — while perhaps not as pivotal as some have claimed — is poised to be an important factor in the presidential race, and these protests would certainly be coverage-worthy if it could be proven that they represent a large Gen Z swing against Joe Biden over Israel/Gaza.
The problem is, that link is very hard to prove. And it’s especially hard to prove in an environment where polling young voters has become so difficult."
"...the students in encampments are not very representative of their age group, and rather are outliers who have succeeded in doing what activists always try to do: receiving media coverage disproportionate to their peer support.
To underscore that point, only 14% of young voters in the Harvard poll said they had participated in a political rally or demonstration in the last 12 months. To be more issue-specific, only 1% identified Israel/Palestine as their top issue, which presumably many in the encampments would.
The poll also took 16 major issues and gave them to respondents in a series of randomized match-ups, trying to find out which issues which more important to young voters than each other issue. In the aggregate of all these match-ups, Israel/Palestine came out #15 out of 16 issues."
What I ask to many is that a 1 issue has and always will be something you will have in any election. The point is then, vote for what you want on many issues and demand change and advocate with our leaders to make changes.
I wonder how many people heard Jared Kushner in an interview where he said (about Gaza) that they should “move all the people out, clean it up” and that it would be an excellent waterfront development. This is only slightly paraphrased. Okay “move the people out”? That’s genocide, my friend.
I just want to point out that last Tuesday we had a primary election in Pennsylvania. The results were very strong for Biden. He received 945,712 votes at last count. About 130,000 voters chose someone else. Biden's vote percentage was 87.9%. Trump received 792,682 votes. Haley got 158,178 votes, 16.6% of the vote. So Trump lost both in raw numbers and vote percentage. So much for him being ahead in PA. I was a poll greeter, and because we have a closed primary, I was only speaking to Democrats. A surprising number showed up not knowing who the candidates were for downballot races. They were just eager to vote for Joe and our other Dems (Susan Wild is our Congressperson). I am not buying the narrative at ALL that Biden is in trouble.
In 2016, there were a lot of Bernie supporters who were adamant that there was no real difference between Trump and 'Killary'. They couldn't/wouldn't forgive her vote in the senate to authorize the use of force in Iraq. It was all they could see. No other issue mattered to them.
No amount of pointing out the fact that the Supreme Court majority was hanging in the balance moved them. No amount of pointing out Trump's glaring racism, misogyny, vulgarity, and unfitness for office made a difference. In the end, we all paid the price for their intransigence.
But here's what we need to remember: the student protesters aren't the only Americans who care about what's happening in Gaza. Many Americans, of different political persuasions, care, too. Myself, included. We hold Israel responsible for the starvation and sickness pervasive in Gaza as a result of this war; we hold them responsible for turning whole cities into rubble, for displacing millions of innocent civilians and for all the unnecessary civilian deaths. But we also hold Hamas responsible for disregarding human life, for committing war crimes like rape and murder, and for taking hostages as human shields. The issue of Gaza and Israel isn't as simple as some would have it.
With that said, though, the threat posed by Trump hasn't diminished - and he couldn't care less what happens to the people of Gaza. He would be more than happy to let an autocrat like Netanyahu have a free hand and not give it a second thought. Anymore than he would bat an eye over Putin taking over Ukraine.
Having witnessed what we all went through with Trump in the White House after the 2016 election, it's very hard for me to comprehend how people can lose perspective over a single issue to the point of allowing Trump to even have a chance at regaining power.
Thanks for an informative article.
There's noise that the International Criminal Court is poised to take action against both parties for war crimes. Free nonpaywall link:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/28/world/middleeast/netanyahu-icc-arrest-warrants-israel-hamas.html?unlocked_article_code=1.oU0.rk7g.K_Pl_owEs4ya&smid=url-share
I think Biden needs to accept their findings, if they find Israeli government officials, including Netanyahu, culpable, without dithering about it. (We also can't know if he's already used backchannels to encourage this).
The other thing people don't think about is that presidential elections are pretty much always between two centrists (the criminality of Trump is an outlier). Left wingers like me will never see their ideal candidate. This is rarely talked about for some reason. It's reality. I've been voting for 45 years. It's always which centrist people are willing to have a beer with.
The only thing that has changed about that is that the centrism needle has moved far to the right during the last 40 years. Obama would be a moderate Republican if you put him into the 1970s body politic. Nixon actually proposed a national health care program and started the EPA. The tax tables were completely different. They had loopholes, but the wealthy paid a lot more than they do now. And so on.
While the US isn't a signatory to the International Criminal Court, I agree that as a matter of upholding the rule of law and the international order, the US should accept its findings - even if it includes Netanyahu [which, FTR, I think lots of Israelis would welcome].
I don't think I've ever voted for my 'ideal' candidate. I doubt anybody has. But I've often voted for the person I think is best suited for the job. I'm not looking for perfection, just good. And decent.
I am not sure how Israelis got stuck with Netanyahu. I do know who his supporters are in Israel, but are they the dominant group or was something else at play. I would love to understand the situation better.
The Israelis have long had security concerns. Reasonable people can argue about the origins of the Israeli state, and that's a complex issue because after the WW2, world powers were desperate to find some answer for the millions of Jews who were killed not just by Hitler, but by pogroms throughout East Europe that the holocaust was sort of a culmination of.
Anti-semitism is, for some reason, very real, and its worst applications were horrendous enough for world powers to form a state on what was essentially Palestinian soil. Things have been ugly ever since then.
Netanyahu is a child of Likud, which is Israel's dominant conservative party that gained power under Menachem Begin, who was himself the first hardcore settlements dude to really be able to exert real power regarding settlement extremism. By that I mean that he pushed hard on the concept of expanding Jewish settlements into the West Bank and Golan Heights. After he perished, I figured the worst was over, especially after the Oslo Accords. Instead, Yitzhak Rabin, the Labor Prime Minister who oversaw the peace effort, was assassinated by an ultra right winger in 1995.
After the assassination, with a few exceptions from a couple of weak Labor prime ministers, Israel has consistently elected pretty hard core right wingers — Netanyahu twice. The liberal-minded Labor Party is still a force, but it's been neutered significantly in recent years.
You might not be surprised to learn that Netanyahu very possibly had something to do with Rabin's assassination. A few weeks prior, Netanyahu attended a political rally where Rabin was decried as a traitor and murder for having the gall to seek peace with the Palestinians.
Ben Gvir, the current head of security in Israel for Netanyahu now, and who is an ultra-far right fascist, said at one time about Rabin, "We got to his car, and we’ll get to him, too,” in reference to some hanky panky I guess he did regarding Rabin's car during some other protests.
A prominent Israeli politician, a woman whose name I can't remember, accused Netanyahu outright of participating in Rabin's assassination. I'd research more on that if I had more time, but hopefully that gives you an idea.
In many ways, Israel has suffered the same way we have. A jolt to the right. We've made some progress in social norms, such as LGBTQ+ rights, but they are on fragile ground, and the backlash has been tremendous, and now the courts are stacked with right wing hooligans.
HTH a little.
And here we are today.
Bibi has been a "whole of Judea and Samaria" guy for his entire political career (and probably before that). He was decidely anti-Oslo until he couldn't stop it and he saw how popular it was. There were plenty of mistakes made with Oslo, including arming the PA and then there was the unilateral decision to withdraw from Gaza, which ended up strengthening Hamas and PIJ and weakening that very same PA in internecine conflict. I've read varying accounts regarding Bibi's involvement in covertly supporting both sides of that but I don't have enough verified information despite its seeming plausibility. The fact remains that the Palestinian people and all their various factions are the only ones who can free themselves and determine their own path. They have been used as willing pawns and proxies of the arab states and Iran over the last several decades to cling to the fantastic project of destroying or diminishing Israel. Unless US supremacy is replaced in the next century (a real possibility) it is manifest that the best the Palestinians can ever hope for in the coming decades is a two-state solution. There will be no compromise on a right of return to Israel proper because it is simply a demographic path to destroying Israel as a safe haven for Jews. As things stand, if Israel remains a vibrant, mostly democratic entity, the Arab-Israeli population may end up irreversably altering that condition over the next few decades. The unfortunate reality is that, as horrendously difficult as it has been for the Palestinians, they will need to accept incremental gains in order to ever secure anything that looks like peace. The main reason is that the prime directive of the Israeli state is and always has been the continued existence of the Jews. It might seem far-fetched to many people in the relative comfort of the post-WWII era but the history of humanity has shown that anti-semitism is endemic. If Israel ceases to exist, it is a certainty that Jews will eventually suffer pogroms, marginilization, and genocide again.
And it was Tzipi Livni, the previous Foreign Minister who suggested multiple times that Bibi's rhetoric, etc contributed to Rabin's assassination.
Personally, I'd be in favor of a THREE state solution. Gaza, West Bank, and Israel, with Jerusalem as an international city of some kind administered by the UN. All three Abrahamic religions have legitimate and important presences there.
A three state solution would more thoroughly neutralize Hamas in the West Bank, at least, and would be easier from an administrative standpoint than a single Palestinian entity that tries to govern two disparate territories split by Israeli territory.
I agree that a 2 state solution is the only one that seems right. I agree that Jews need a space to feel safe, and while England made the determination where, since at the end of WWII the US and Europe were still anti-Semitic and were not good places to go, Israel was the best place. Although some Jews stayed in Europe, and many went to the USA, most went to Israel. Arabs are Semites too, so that is a misnomer if it is just referring to Jews. So, the people of the Middle East are Semitic and anti-Semitism seems to affect reactions to them all from certain Christians. Self determination for Gazans sounds good, but how realistic is it? For example, do women in Gaza get self determination too? Or, will they be living like women in Saudi Arabia and others of the region with subservience to men? It does not seem like easy solutions which is why there have been none. Having Hamas and Netanyahu negotiating the conditions under which people in the area will live seems to make it even harder, but not any less necessary.
Thank you Charles.
Same.
Good comment, Charles; thank you. I’m an American expat living in France, and from here I can tell you that even Biden would be considered center-right overall (and, unfortunately, far-right on the Israel-Gaza issue). Here’s a telling point: France’s main “far right” party is National Rally, with Marine LePen as leader. Political scientists who study global politics point out that the National Rally party is not as far right as the Republican Party in the US. And for all the risible blathering from the MAGAts about the “socialist Hell hole” that is France, the country has plenty of wealthy capitalists, including one of the five richest men in the world, Bernard Arnault. It’s just that France has about 1/3 the number of billionaires per capita as the US does, the result of a modestly more-progressive tax structure than the US’ heavily wealth-skewed tax system. In return, we get universal health care, affordable housing and education. And, notably ,women’s access to abortion was just enshrined in national law—the first country in the world to do so. That’s what’s possible—with Biden, if the Dems take Congress as well as the White House. Otherwise, the US starts to look a lot more like Hungary or, dare I say it, Russia.
Thanks for the perspective from France. I'm in my 60s, and I've always been a frustrated lefty. However, I long ago made peace with the fact that my fellow Americans are more centrist than I am. Centrist presidents will always rule the day.
What my fellow lefties don't seem to understand is that if they really want change, they'll need to fight a little harder to fill the bench. This means voting in local elections. People, especially young people, just don't seem willing to take that simple step.
As for Biden's foreign policy — it is simply the foreign policy that has dominated both parties since WW2. Ironically, the only person around who seems willing to challenge that bedrock is the ultimate nutcase, and that's really more because he's a shit disturber than because he has any real rationalization behind anything he does.
Great comment, Mr. Bastille! I have been yelling about the rightward slide of both centrists and the more leftish wing of the Dem party for years now.
Can you imagine red states passing seat belt laws these days? All their citizens would be like bug splatter on the insides of their windshields.
For you young folks: There was a day, before the insect apocalypse, where when you drove for long periods. your windshield would be full of dead bugs. This no longer happens because we've killed off so many. Luckily, we're about to be saved by cicadas! :-)
yes...all the critters that feast on bugs should get filled up this year!!! At least in areas that harbor cicadas! We Mainers are looking for tick and black fly eaters!
Genocide abroad or genocide at home? As a transgender woman I feel like those who vote or abstain against Biden are voting for genocide against the transgender population, the slaughter of children in our schools as well as those who would try to find refuge in the United States from the kind of government the right-wingers here and abroad continue to usher in. Those who give in to anger and frustration may think they are standing on principals, but their will still be blood on their hands regardless. We can't fix these problems of injustice if we keep allowing the facists to manipulate our votes so as to put them back in power.
Voting in this election will be like choosing between bronchitis and lung cancer. I’ll choose bronchitis but not happy about it.
Once again we are supposed to hold our noses and vote, but for as many issues as Biden has, Trump has a thousandfold more, and dangerous ones.
Yeah, well voting is sort of like taking the bus home: you can’t hold out for the bus that drops you in front of your house, but you take the one that gets you closest.
Voting is a Lever Switch, to get that Person in Seat of Power With Whom you have the Most Leverage, so you can Get Things that You Want Done. It is Not, nor should be a part of Your Identity or moral image of yourself.
The only difference will be, those who do not vote by above principle will lose. The only difference between 'anti biden' progressives and MAGA Trumpists will be that MAGA Trumpists will Mindlessly Vote for their Cult leader and WIN, Everyone else WILL LOSE, the 'anti-biden' progressives will be left alone in their Moral High Tower to complain. Their ability to complain along with all the Progressive Causes will be Destroyed as DEMOCRACY WILL DIE.
TO COMPLAIN, WIN FIRST.
Spoken like any true believer. Get in line. Do not express your opinion if it does not March to the drumbeat.
Of course I’ll vote for Biden but I’ll not anoint him or anyone to any state of Grace that is devoid of all blemishes.
The statement is not personally for you since you already were voting biden and is the worst understanding you could have gotten from the simple statements made above.
My points simply are,
Voting is not a statement of your identity or ideals, it is a mechanism to realistically deliver your most preferable outcomes.
Preserve democracy first only then an option exists to make changes in future.
For you personally, I agree, no need to put anyone at any altar, voting biden and blue, doing what you can to preserve democracy is enough.
OK. I stand corrected. However, there are a few others on this forum who are closer to a left wing thought police.
Well let them be. At least they aren't puppy killers like the other side.
How about those who hold Hanas, a terrorist organization & one dedicated not to peace but to wiping out Israeli Jews, responsible? What do we say to them?
Where is the coverage of Jewish students in the Free Palestine movement? Netanyahu is facing daily protests but we don't see that on the news networks. Why?
Netanyahu has been criminally indicted (by an Israeli court) and is desperate to keep this war going (might even have played a role in instigating it) because as long as he stays in office, he can avoid jail. He knows that people won’t easily change leaders under conditions of war even when the majority of Israelis oppose him.
Not sure what your question is. Yes, there are a few Jewish students in anti-Israel movement.
Anti-Israel, or anti-Likud and Netanyahu? You are spinning.
Check CNN international you'll find complete coverage.
Some findings Israeli people are angry at Netanyahu but fully supportive of the war. There are rare to none protests against the war in Israel.
If they're holding Hamas responsible, we should say, 'Thank you. Well done.'
Don’t forget Netanyahus parties mission was to destroy Palestine. Right in their documents.
And Hamas’s mission (and Iran and maybe Putin’s) is to erase Israel.
🤦🏻♂️the world already knows that one, yet did you know Netanyahu anted the same thing for Palestinine? Wake up and use facts from both sides, Israel isn’t the good guy either under netanyahu.
Where did I say that Israel under Netanyahu is the good guy? 🤦♀️ As for “the world already knows that one,” maybe “the world” knows it, but if they do, they DGAF about Hamas’ murderous intentions. Because you didn’t mention that Hamas wants Israel gone, I mentioned it, to add to what you wrote.
Say hi if you see me, please!
I heard that from my leftist friends and there is not a point they made that I allowed them to get away with. I did acknowledge that I understood that they were upset that Bernie was not the candidate, and pointed out that when I vote I pick candidates that not only agree with many of the positions I have, but also seem like they can get things done. While I am not saying people were jumping up and suddenly agreeing with me, at least they were silent and it was clearly reflectively.
Thank YOU, Jane in NC for a GREAT comment.
Bringing up the "Bernie supporters" who didn't step up and help to block Trump in 2016 cuts right to the heart of the matter. Many of them went even farther and have literally defied the reasoning and appeals by Bernie himself for unity, because they felt like it and know better than anyone. My unscientific and subjective experience has shown that few if any of those who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton hold themselves personally accountable for the tiniest sliver of responsibility for Trump being inflicted on not only the nation but the world. We now find ourselves in an even worse situation than the direst predictions, and the worst is yet to come. But none of them own it.
And now we have a whole new batch of impatient foot-stampers ready to let it all burn down around us, just to show us they "mean business" and must be obeyed.
If we fail at the opportunity to practice Democracy this time, I will simply accept the judgment of history, and write it all off as a doomed experiment. If we can't see our way through a choice like this, then we collectively deserve it.
You raise a very good point, Sam. Most Bernie supporters did put aside their differences with the Clinton campaign and vote for her in 2016. However, a large enough segment didn't that it made a difference in swing states. They argued that voting was a sort of passive activity where a candidate had to 'earn' their support in order to get them off their backsides to vote, rather than an active exercise of civic engagement and responsibility where they were obligated to evaluate both candidates and vote for the one they agreed with on most things - or in the alternative, against the one they disagreed with on nearly everything. That group of Bernie supporters absolutely rejected the fact that non-votes worked to the benefit of Donald Trump, and that's why they refused to accept accountability later.
We were in a situation in 2020 where most people clearly saw the danger posed by Trump's continued presence at the top of the executive branch. The damage he did just in all the lives unnecessarily lost to COVID can never be undone. And he's threatening to do much worse if he gets back in power. People get tired of hearing that we face an existential threat in the form of Trump and MAGA, but we do. We've lost the Supreme Court to extremists, 3 of whom were appointed by Trump. As a result women have lost their rights of personal autonomy and privacy to any bunch of elected yahoos with an agenda.
I hope that most of today's foot-stampers have a chance to cool off and regain their perspective before November's election, because there's more at stake than the outcome in Gaza and Israel. And their entire generation will have to live with the consequences.
Yes, precisely. Thanks for that contribution.
Not going to feel bad for Hillary "I gave you President Trump! No need to thank me!" Rodham Clinton.
You just keep swing that broken bat, HillBot—we could have had President Bernie Sanders and NONE of this would have happened.
And here we are, folks: Case in point.
People like you let Trump in, and you won't even own it. You don't have anything new to say.
Says the person standing up for the Unpunished Traitor Hillary Rodham Clinton.
You lot make me sick with your continuding to stand by The Mistress of NeoLiberal Evil while bad-mouthing one of the few genuinely GOOD people in politics, Bernie Sanders! What, does her calling him a "Comminist!"(sic.) give you your Cold War jollies like they clearly give that ex-Goldwater Girl?
You are a self-parody. You really have no inkling of how you come off. Please, carry on.
I am horrified by what is happening in Gaza. I get the frustration so many have. I wonder how many people understand that one problem is that Israel’s destruction of Gaza is not happening in a vacuum. I believe part of the reason the US has continued to give aid to Israel is that abandoning Israel now could very well send signals that we don’t want to send. Iran and Israel have been exchanging drone attacks. Houthis in Yemen have been attacking shipping. A signal that the US is leaving Israel on its own may further destabilize the region that is already barely functional. Would that be better? I doubt it. For the most part the only thing the majority of Muslim countries and groups in that region only agree on one thing — hatred of Israel. But they are not known for having much better views on each other. I hate Netanyahu with almost the same passion I hate tRump. I hope and pray that this administration and allies from Europe can get through to Netanyahu and bring this to an end. I’m not sure it will happen. I think that the current prime minister of Israel is an evil man. It’s been clear from the start that he has no conscience with regard to the Palestinians. Honestly, I don’t think he gives a rats ass about most Israelis. He is concerned only with himself and the people he believes can keep him in power.
I agree with you Kate!! I don't want to sound like some of those conspirator people, but I had thoughts that what if evil Netanyahu ignored the signs of Hamas attack on purpose, to cause a conflict with Gaza, to deflect from him for his own purposes and cause trouble for Biden in an election year? He would "love" to have Trump back in his corner! Maybe stir in a bit of Putin since it takes away from the war in Ukraine? What a mess, wish those 3, Putin. Netanyahu and Trump would just vanish from our world!
It's not as conspiracy-theorish as it seems. They got an awful lot of warning that is pretty well documented. And this is a man who is at least as craven as Trump, if not more.
And don't forget Israel's drone attack on the Iranian Embassy, just in case Hamas wasn't enough.
I don't think you have to dive into conspiracy theories to see the plain truth that this war has benefited Netanyahu's political and legal fortunes. It's not outside the realm of possibility that keeping it going - such as the saber rattling he's doing as the administration and our allies are pushing hard for a ceasefire from Israel while pressuring Hamas for a release of the hostages - is his way of doing just that.
Most Israelis are furious at him and his administration for failing to keep the country safe.
I think it has been shown that there is more than meets the eye here. I’m Jewish and try to understand but this, no… relating to the attacks on Gaza. But I do find it hard to grasp how so many (especially college protesters) can’t seem to see that Gaza is not an independent issue. Many of us may feel that the biggest issue has been keeping as close to peace as possible in order to keep oil prices somewhat stable. But if you add climate change and the Paris agreements in, right or wrong, so much is at stake. And I cannot see a winning argument to letting this escalate.
Us speaking to them is not the problem, the administration NOT speaking to them is. I am far more worried about a repeat of the 1968 Democratic Convention disaster than anything else. There will be protests, and if we have another case of protesters being arrested; that will be bad. The DNC and Biden/Harris campaign should reach out before the convention, and invite key people TO the convention. If there is another riot like in 68, it will be all over the news - overshadowing the convention.
I was in Philly during the 2016 Democratic National Convention, and the Bernie Bro/anti-Hillary people were everywhere. But, they didn't end up disrupting the convention to any large degree. I agree that having people from the Biden/Harris campaign reach out is a good idea, and I suspect that's going on already. The big question is if anyone from the other side is willing to reach back.
If they don't reach back then they are not serious about making a difference, but we have to reach out to the right people.
There is no "other side" to reach out to if there is no legit leadership. You can't pick a handful of agitators at random because they got on camera.
Point.
Since no response by Biden I’m confirming to myself that the race is between two senile men. However, I’m not an unrealistic zealot like Bernie supporters who like other third party voters rationalize to not admit their’s was just a wasted protest vote and as with Trump resulted in extreme damage to this country.
Biden did send reps to meet with them, but more is definitely needed. No, this does NOT make President Biden senile.
Old =/= senile. Trmp is senile. Biden is not doing diplomacy in front of cameras, because there are so many moving parts (AKA sides/people). Grow up, dude.
There's ZERO evidence that President Biden is senile. None. On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence that Donald Trump is suffering from dementia.
The Russian troll farms are having a field day with people like you Jim. Disinformation and misinformation. Saying Biden is senile is exactly what the Russian troll farms love. Embarrassing.
One problem. I’m pretty immune to propaganda no matter where it is coming from. I see I’m getting some hostile blowback from my comment, which I do not remember what I said. A little subtext:
I was in the service during the Viet Nam war as a medic and I have watched people die. I was against that war recognizing how stupid it was and knowing Charles DeGaul forced us into it stating that if we didn’t go into the war he would align France with the Soviets.
I listened to my fellow Americans discuss how we should nuke all the gooks rather than lose the life of one white American. Not proud to be an American. I was threatened for stating my views which I kept giving and had to do a lot of extra duty for it.
Got stationed in San Francisco in 1967, the Summer of Love. I thought I could go to some hippy places for intellectual conversations but no, I was disliked because I must be a baby killer since I was in the service. Besides, it turns out many of the flower children were there to avoid the draft and were just enjoying the sex, drugs and rock n roll. I accurately predicted that once the war was over most would go back to their middle and upper class lives.
I got out and started college. I saw demonstrations against the war that tore this country apart and saw how a weak and effete DEMOCRATIC PARTY gave us Richard Millhouse Nixon. A scum bag.
I watched how Biden did nothing when scumball Republicans were disgusting towards Anita Hill even though he was there to provide some cover. So we got Clarence Thomas on the SCROTUS.
Biden appointed a weak AG when he became president who sat on his ass when we had maniac Trump still running around.
I will give you that I was intemperance calling Biden senile. However, he may be, none of us know for sure.
OK, so you can guess my approximate age by what I have revealed. I can unequivocally say IMO, at his age he is doing this country a disservice running for president. He is doing nothing substantial to stop genocide. I’m embarrassed by my country as I find the Republicans totally repugnant and the Democrats better but still not worthy of my respect.
The Democrats have many extremists that are mirror images of the crazy Republicans. I do not like where I see our country headed.
So those who want to attack my opinion, I could give a shit less.
Oh, please, Jim. In no way is Biden senile. Trump is on his way to senility.
Seems people forget how the Israel-Gaza war started.
IMO, both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist, but thousands of years of hatred will not go down easily.
Biden is not the problem and I'm certain he's doing a better job behind the scenes than tfg.
The Israel-Palestine conflict didn’t start on October 7th, 2023. Maybe try learning history back into 1948.
... and WAY before 1948. But the current carnage started with an attack on Israel on 10/7 fomented by *thousands* of years of conflict (and oppression), including the "crusades". It will probably take a 'messiah' to quell the hatred in that region (and spreading).
Then how about weeks or months before the attack. Palestinians being murdered, Israel broke the Ceasefire, and information has come out that Israel knew about Hamas attack a year in advance. Netanyahu wanted it to happen, and helped it along by slaughtering his own citizens that day, and immediately printing falsehoods about beheaded babies and rape.
?! source?
I’m not gonna do your homework, look it up, or just watch interviews with Baseem, he states these facts and brings the data.
This has been news for 5 months, check more independent news sources that aren’t pro Zionist. Tik Tok is a great resource for Gaza news sources which is the main reason it is being banned.
IOW, ya got nothin.
That explains a lot. TikTok is literally being used to spread Hamas propaganda to people like you who aren’t even attempting to parse the information critically. There is absolutely a misuse by foreign adversaries happening on that app.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=A%20blueprint%20reviewed%20by%20The,aspirational%20and%20ignored%20specific%20warnings.&text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,documents%2C%20emails%20and%20interviews%20show.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/
Agree 10000%.
I suspect that the reason Joe is adamant about continuing military support to Israel has much more to do with the fact that Israel is the main buffer against Iran in that region. Biden supported the Iran nuclear deal, which held promise, but of course that's dead, and Iran is a real threat. I also think he is much more concerned about the American hostages than the public realizes. The reason Blinken gave for the US voting repeatedly in the UN against ceasefire resolutions is that they didn't contain language addressing the hostages. Biden's continuing support for Israel despite the bad publicity is neither random nor knee jerk.
I agree that there are many factors at work here, and we don’t always get a clear picture and shouldn’t necessarily expect to.
The President also knows that support for Israel does not equate to support for Netanyahu, who will one day be gone from office.
I think Iran has shown a lot of restraint against ongoing Israel attacks. They seem to be the ones who do not want war, unlike US and Israel. US has military strongholds all over the Middle East, and yet Americans never want to see themselves as the instigators or bad guys.
Iran helped Hamas attack Israel on October 7, in part to ultimately help Trump. They knew that Netanyahu would go ballistic and in doing so incur the world’s justifiable wrath (a wrath that, somehow, never seems to arise against other tyrants who murder millions of their own people, all over the world). They knew that many people here would hold Biden accountable for supporting Israel. I guess I’m saying the obvious….
Hamas/Iran propaganda.
What world are you in, Iran and Putin helped Hamas attack Israel on October 7. One ultimate goal is to use our justifiable outrage at Netanyahu’s counterattacks to hold Biden accountable for continuing to support Israel. Anyone who won’t vote for Biden despite this support of Israel is in effect just another of Putin’s many puppets.
I assume this response was to the person above me…. I agree with you!
I meant to say “…despite HIS support of Israel.”
You must be kidding!
Oh, please. Give it a rest already.
Good advice. Thank you. My current mantra is that the 2024 election is a vote for platform, not person.
I agree! This CAN NOT be a single issue election.
Very much so! this needs to be emphasised at every turn,
It seems that people are prepared to place all the blame on Biden, undermining their own country in the process.
I agree. While I support the right to to protest and hate what is happening in Gaza I just wish there was as much impassioned protest for what’s going on in THIS country especially in regards to Women losing their rights.
I hope I am not alone in thinking Biden could and SHOULD do more to stop Israel, like cut ties for 60 days, but I will still vote for him in November.
The alternative is UNTHINKABLE. I don't think anyone ever said Joe Biden was perfect---he sure isn't, but if you want to put the two men side by each, Joe Biden is a caring man, a moral man, mostly, and an ethical one, again, mostly.
Trump is NONE of those things.
It’s not even close.
You lost me at caring, moral and ethical, please give me a break!
I think you are angry, very understandably so, but I do think President Biden is empathetic and mostly a stand up person. He is not in charge in Israel. The Israelis are. I think he is working for the best possible solution for the region along with many others, while attempting to maintain support for the only democracy in the Middle East.Pretty huge job. I agree with the commenter who indicated that Biden should accept the findings of the International Criminal Court without dither. I hope he does. I hope a lasting ceasefire can be accomplished. I hope the Israelis can vote Netananyu and his faction out.
I hope we can be rid of Trump. This being first for me as a US citizen. Our vote is all we have. It is our voice. I won’t waste mine and risk loosing that voice entirely.
Please see yourself out, troll.
I am a liberal left of center democrat that has voted in every election and never voted Republican. I donated to Democrats every election and volunteered for some local campaigns. I marched in the Women’s March and the March for Science.
I am sickened by what is happening in Gaza. I don’t know how we can work against Russia in their war but support Israel in theirs. The same tactics and lack of humanity. And do not call me antisemitic. I am not against Jewish people but I am against the actions Israel is taking against the Palestinians. I was appalled by the Hamas attack as well but Israel’s actions are so much worse (1139 dead v 32,943). I resent my taxes supporting this mass targeted genocide.
Democratic leadership gets it wrong when they say it is the hard progressives turning on Biden for his stand. My friends and family are politically aligned with me. There are a lot of us middle to left leaning voters that feel the same. I look at him differently now, not the good old caring grandpa persona that is projected but a politician that seems indifferent to the war crimes being committed by Israel.
I will vote Democrat and for Biden but without enthusiasm but will not donate or volunteer this election.
I’m sure I will get some haters responding that have an absolute loyalty to Israel no matter what, as I have seen attacks and intolerance against differing opinions like mine in other threads. But our voices should be heard too.
I don’t believe we support an ally or friendly nation no matter what. That support should have boundaries and when behaviors or actions cross the line then our support stops. Not dissimilar to support for Germany until Hitler took over. Things and circumstances can change and our support should not be absolute.
I very much doubt that Biden does not care about the war crimes being committed by Israel. How much he can do about it unilaterally and within the realm of the politically possible is another matter entirely.
Very well said. Thank you.
If polls really show voters will.vote for Biden despite his refusal to stop sending weapons of war to Netanyahu (even as proof he's serious about Gaza,) no wonder he is sticking to his guns. Biden is political first and last. It's his greatest strength and his biggest weakness. If he persists in enabling genocide I won't be able to bring myself to vote for him. If the ICC doesn't stop Netanyahu's war crimes, then hopefully Jill Stein and the Green Party will become a real threat between now and November so no American has to vote for genocide.
Jay Kuo: No wonder Gore Vidal called America the "United States of Amnesia."
Admittedly, I am 76-years-old.
1968 is quite vivid to me. As vivid as events two months ago.
The Left was totally against the War. (At that time, "THE War" meant one thing: Vietnam.)
A difference, of course, is that WE were there and I was in the draft age-group.
Then Chicago happened; Mayor Daley's police battered peaceful protesters.
So, the people voted AGAINST a good and sound man -- who, apparently, had opposed expansion of THE War behind the scenes, namely, Hubert Horatio Humphrey.
God, I still love that man.
So, who did they vote for?!
Why, Dick Nixon, OF COURSE.
Are we repeating the terrible mistakes of that time?!
A left-winger -- count me IN (I count myself an Elizabeth-Warren Democrat; my alternative is Bernie Sanders -- that is MY Wing.)
So, because of the terrors in Gaza, my wing would SERIOUSLY, at THIS time, withhold support from today's HHH (Biden, within the Obama administration, had been a relative peace advocate)?!
REALLY?!
THIS is THE TIME to protest vote AGAINST the Democrat?!
I must be living in "Alice Through the Looking Glass!"
Maybe I need a few of Alice's mushrooms to wax tall and to shrink to mouse-size and grow tall again and Jabber-Wocky and "Off with their heads" shouted the Queen.
What a TIME we are living in!
Look: October 7th was a horrendous act of terror committed by genocidal mass-murderers.
Benjamin Netanyahu, in revenge, conducts major air strikes against . . . READY?! -- hospitals, refugee camps, ambulances, Orthodox Churches, Mosques . . . and massively kills children and non-combatants.
It is quite RIGHT to dissent from Netanyahu's war CRIMES.
I was an Air Force (Reserve) Judge Advocate who had to master and teach the Law of War, so I know these are war crimes and I renounce and condemn them.
Still, Israel must exist -- for after the Shoah one must defend Israel forever and such terror and genocide must never be allowed to occur. Not ever, NEVER again!
I would welcome all Jews throughout the world right here in America.
The two thoughts are complex, but they coexist. Hamas consists of genocidal terrorists. Israel is right to decapitate the leadership. But Israel has in a very vile way wrought massive death to children, women and noncombatants, which must be stopped, must be CONDEMNED, and for which Netanyahu must be held accountable.
These values are complex, but they tend towards protecting the inestimable value of human life.
Our election system gives us two choices: Biden, who is TRYING to mitigate and mediate the Middle-Eastern War in a humane way (and who faces terrible hurdles), and, the UNTHINKABLE!
Orange-Monster is UNTHINKABLE!
Hmm…
Good effort at relative logic.
High points for using paragraph breaks — really enhances readability.
Agree with every word you wrote, Jay. Spot on! We have this age cohort in our family, and one of them lodged a "protest" vote in the MI primary. That's OK. We said it was smart to have your say and voice, so their vote in November must be for Biden to PRESERVE their right to protest THEIR government's actions when they disagree. That hit home -- an additional element for the conversation. This is the crux of democracy; the right to free speech and to peacefully protest. 100%
Thank you for this, I've been wondering myself if this conflict wasn't going to hand this election to Trump. Hopefully your suggestions will help mend some rifts. I still find it a great concern.
By conflict, do you mean genocide on children?
For those concerned about the college campus protests and potential "no votes for Biden," and whether that will impact all young voters, here's a viewpoint from someone in the young voters age group, thoughtfully presented.
https://www.wakeuptopolitics.com/april-29-2024/
Excerpts:
"The youth vote — while perhaps not as pivotal as some have claimed — is poised to be an important factor in the presidential race, and these protests would certainly be coverage-worthy if it could be proven that they represent a large Gen Z swing against Joe Biden over Israel/Gaza.
The problem is, that link is very hard to prove. And it’s especially hard to prove in an environment where polling young voters has become so difficult."
"...the students in encampments are not very representative of their age group, and rather are outliers who have succeeded in doing what activists always try to do: receiving media coverage disproportionate to their peer support.
To underscore that point, only 14% of young voters in the Harvard poll said they had participated in a political rally or demonstration in the last 12 months. To be more issue-specific, only 1% identified Israel/Palestine as their top issue, which presumably many in the encampments would.
The poll also took 16 major issues and gave them to respondents in a series of randomized match-ups, trying to find out which issues which more important to young voters than each other issue. In the aggregate of all these match-ups, Israel/Palestine came out #15 out of 16 issues."
Also, the protests are at elite colleges.
This right here. Thank you for sharing!
What I ask to many is that a 1 issue has and always will be something you will have in any election. The point is then, vote for what you want on many issues and demand change and advocate with our leaders to make changes.
I wonder how many people heard Jared Kushner in an interview where he said (about Gaza) that they should “move all the people out, clean it up” and that it would be an excellent waterfront development. This is only slightly paraphrased. Okay “move the people out”? That’s genocide, my friend.
Everyone has, and Biden has the same plans. Are you that naive?
Comrade Sarah, the one you need to fear is Trump.
I just want to point out that last Tuesday we had a primary election in Pennsylvania. The results were very strong for Biden. He received 945,712 votes at last count. About 130,000 voters chose someone else. Biden's vote percentage was 87.9%. Trump received 792,682 votes. Haley got 158,178 votes, 16.6% of the vote. So Trump lost both in raw numbers and vote percentage. So much for him being ahead in PA. I was a poll greeter, and because we have a closed primary, I was only speaking to Democrats. A surprising number showed up not knowing who the candidates were for downballot races. They were just eager to vote for Joe and our other Dems (Susan Wild is our Congressperson). I am not buying the narrative at ALL that Biden is in trouble.
Agreed. Polls are NOT matching actual results thus far. It’s a narrative, nothing more.