Aug 3, 2023Liked by Todd Beeton, The Big Picture, George Takei
I do not believe in the concept of god and haven't for a long time. I'm also tired of the hypocrisy of organized religions; not the believers per se, the religions. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, went to Catholic grade school and high school and every time I questioned some aspect of this faith it was made clear that there was something wrong with me. I'm a cisgender woman and soon realized that the Catholic Church viewed women as not equal to men. I realized that the Church viewed LGBTQ+ individuals as inferior and "wrong". I realized that the Church created havens for pedophiles, allowing them to flourish and covering up their horrible actions. This behavior is not limited to the Catholic Church as most, if not all, organized religions display these behaviors. At least in the ancient Greek and Roman societies (and others) female gods existed, but not in the jewish or christian religions. There is only one god who is male. If god existed they would be beyond gender since sexual identity is a human construct. Why would god create everything and then ignore it all. I believe in morals and ethics. I believe that no one should harm others and everyone should help others when possible. I don't need to believe in god to believe in this.
I really enjoyed the distinction and clear definitions of how agnostic, gnostic, atheist, and theist are actually conflated incorrectly in public discourse. I miss nuance and differentiation in public news and discourse. I am very happy to find it here in this reader supported space.
Aug 3, 2023Liked by Todd Beeton, The Big Picture, George Takei
My journey to atheism was brief and came early. I don't recall exactly when but I think I was about 12 when it dawned on the that all religions were myths, no different than the ancient Greek and Roman myths I was learning about in school. I was raised in the Congregational church which is very non-dogmatic so it was not a huge leap; our religious education classes had exposed me to a number of different religions. Perhaps the clincher was when a friend told me that a Catholic priest had told him his mother was going to hell because she was not a Catholic. Never looked back or doubted my decision.
Aug 3, 2023·edited Aug 3, 2023Liked by Todd Beeton, The Big Picture, George Takei
There is nothing more arrogant and pernicious than the belief that some supernatural entity or group of entities reached down and blessed you, your family, your tribe, your nation or your species above all others. And it requires a double dose of arrogance to adhere to such beliefs in the face of what we know about the size and age of the cosmos and the history of life on this planet. Humanity will only become adult when we collectively surrender notions that we are somehow special and that some supernatural entity will look out for our well-being and ultimately save us from disaster. And we'd better get there quickly if we want to survive much longer as a species.
Aug 3, 2023Liked by Todd Beeton, The Big Picture, George Takei
I was raised Roman Catholic, but had difficulty just believing in what the church taught. When I started talking about that doubt, my girlfriend (now wife) introduced me to her campus priest. He talked to me about symbolism in Catholicism, and helped me understand that Jesus’s teachings were really about being good to one another as we are all humans, and deserving of love and kindness. I have, since then identified as Christian since I try to follow his teachings, not because of any creeds that the heads of the church developed.
I think that, at least in my case, I am weary of self identifying atheists since many people I have met who call themselves “atheist” have been arrogant and intolerant of me and my beliefs just because I don’t identify as atheist. I have also had issues with so-called Christians, since they also have berated me and claimed that I am not Christian since I don’t believe that Jesus was God.
You seem to be a rational person, and don’t seem like the type to put down others because of their labels, but someone I could respect, irregardless of what you call yourself. You seem the polar opposite of the atheist who disagreed with me because of my belief about the teachings of Jesus and being good to one another, just because “The Bible is just a story and Jesus believed in a non existent God.” What’s important is not how we label ourselves, but our actions towards others.
Well, now, with the obnoxious rise of Christian Nationalism, this was a breath of fresh air. I identify as "none of the above" when asked. Born and raised Presbyterian, lived with an orthodox Jewish family for a year IN a traditionally Moslem country (Turkey) married a non-practicing Jew, went to a fabulous Catholic school for a year in high school, lived in Southeast Asia, so experienced Buddhism first hand. I've learned from them all.
At this juncture, I choose not to identify with any of them, though the principles of the Buddhist life come closest to how I wish to live mine.
Beliefs should be held deeply close to home, and like the bedroom, are no place for prying eyes and questions.
"With more and more Americans identifying as non-religious, why is there still a stigma hanging over atheism?"
Indeed, there should be no stigma hanging over anyone about this. It is a non-issue for me, and I consider myself 'spiritual'---I don't 'believe' in anything in particular except that there appears to be a reality, a Universe of both order and chaos---and it's both beautiful and scary, and I want to know and experience as much of it as possible while I am here...or not. ;-) If others want to identify one way or another, that is strictly their personal business, unless they make it my business (As some feel they must do). I care about character and human decency and how one treats all beings---things that have nothing to do religion, or even a belief in a supreme being. So...
...There should be no judgment about any of it. If there is a stigma about it, human beings have created it for their own selfish reasons. As a matter of fact, even doing surveys has layers of stigma attached. (Who wants to know, and why is it important to ask?)
Aug 3, 2023·edited Aug 3, 2023Liked by George Takei
One of the things that always fascinates me in the dispute between theists, atheists, and agnostics, is the implied definition of what a god IS. It is clearly a power that cares about and intervenes in human life. From that follows somehow an obligation to both worship and propitiate that power. From that arise all the doctrines and rituals that various religions--and differing segments of same--hold to be the One Truth.
I was raised High Church Episcopalian as a compromise between my father's Catholic family and my mother's Presbyterian one. (That, btw, is a very shaky reason to be indoctrinated in a specific religion). During the inevitable boring sermons, as a pre-teen and young teen I would read the 39 Articles of the Anglican Communion conveniently printed in the back of the Book of Common Prayer. What that told me, insofar as it made much sense at all, was that both sides of my family were wrong. I also couldn't see how the Articles made any sense in terms of internal consistency. In college, studying Calvinism as part of Western Civ, I concluded that I must be one of the damned. What a freeing thought! No need for worship or propitiation: just lead the best life you could because that was all that was left to you of virtue. And virtue--or ethics--seemed to me a value that kept us apart from "animals." (Now I'm not so sure animals don't have their own sense of ethics.)
I've read a lot of theories about cosmology, enough to know that nobody KNOWS that origin of what we know of the universe. Could be blind chance, could be something we haven't yet begun to think about. Whatever it is, there is NO reason to think it cares a jot about humans in particular. It has always been the case that some "prayers" are "answered" and a whole lot more not answered. Coincidence and confirmation bias explain that phenomenon pretty well.
So to the extent that agnostics are defined as thinking that there is a God "who" is unknowable, I'm not an agnostic, nor (in the sense of believing that Chance is the only alternative to a human-centric "god") am I an atheist. It is why, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, I consider myself to be part of the Congregation of the Sublimely Indifferent. The one ethical rule found in pretty much all religions, and pretty much also IGNORED by most religious folk, is the Golden Rule. So: don't worry about what "god" thinks--just keep on truckin' following that rule as best you can.
That includes not being judgmental about people for their faith, but just for their failures to follow the very tenets of that faith.
I believe many people won’t admit to being an atheist because the word, “atheist” has been sullied. And if one equates atheism with arrogance, then it should also be applied to those who do believe in God as that view also takes the same amount of arrogance. How can pea brained humans positively know what is unknowable?
I was a recovering Catholic but now I would have to call myself an agnostic. I adore Stephen Colbert but I would offer this in response to his question, “What is an agnostic but an atheist without any balls?” I would counter, “What is a theist but a gullible person with an excess of balls, i.e.: the hubris and arrogance to declare they KNOW a completely UNKNOWABLE, UNPROVABLE thing such as 'there is a God.'
Atheist is a word/view that many won’t admit to because just like the word, “liberal,” it has become conflated with something evil and wrong. It’s part of the religious brainwashing that most of us have suffered through since birth. We can thank patriarchal organized religion for that.
It’s impossible to know for a fact that there is an invisible omnipresent, omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc. BEING and they did and can do all these miracles. It’s also impossible to claim that there is absolutely no God because you can’t prove a negative. My limited knowledge should reasonably keep me from making such proclamations on either side and the same should go for the rest of the planet. But that’s never going to happen. And who knows? There was a time when doctors laughed at the idea of washing their hands because of invisible microbes that could spread disease and infection. It took technology to be able to see those “invisible” microbes to prove they existed and to get doctors to wash their hands. Perhaps someday they might invent a similar technology that can allow us to see other dimensions or even “God.”
Then as every philosophy 101 college course should teach, there’s always the question of evil. An omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent being would and should eradicate evil and not allow suffering but that’s not the case. So, the question of evil blows up the whole omnibenevolent, omnipotent god mythos. How can you be all powerful, everywhere at once and all good but still allow evil to exist in the world? Blows so many holes in the idea of a God that it can’t be reconciled. But my most worrisome issue regarding the subject of God is organized patriarchal religion. That’s something I would like to see abolished forever and replaced with a common societal goal of community support which would go a long way in uniting more people then some magic sky wizard.
I can't call myself an atheist because I am too spiritual. I have experienced mystical things that I can’t begin to explain in a logical fashion so that’s when I question what is really true about what’s out there in our universe. So I’ll just keep my mind open and see what I continue to learn. I feel as though there are things that humans will never be able to explain or understand, certainly not in my lifetime, and quite possibly, not even in humankind’s future, and that’s okay. Mystery is a good thing. It adds to the wonder of the world and I’m okay with that. But atheists will always be demonized so long as there is organized patriarchal religion. When we free ourselves of the misogynistic Christofascist and Muslimfascist patriarchy-then the word “atheist” will probably come to be as innocuous a label as “human.” We have a long way to go.
My father was a pastor so I was raised in Christian belief. Through most of my life, I accepted this faith because it gave me comfort in difficult times. When I turned 50 I started to question this belief. I had always imagined God to be male and my life at that time made maleness a decided negative. Also I had recently returned from living in Japan where I met many as devoted to their Buddhist or Shinto idea of god as the Christians surrounding me were to theirs. It was a short step from “There is one god revealed to us through Christ” to “There are many manifestations of God” to “None of it makes sense to me any more.” I can’t bring myself to say I don’t believe - it denies the foundation of the life I was raised in - but I also no longer find any certainty in that belief. Meanwhile, my life goes on pretty much the same with or without religion. At 79 I probably will find out sooner rather than later what the truth really is. I can live with that unknowing.
As I read this wonderful article, I kept thinking to myself “that’s me, that’s my journey, that’s what I think”. I want to send this to many family members as a much more eloquent explanation of my atheism than I could ever muster. Unfortunately, because of my political leanings and lack of belief in a god or gods, those family members have severed any relationship. Ah well, their loss.
Aug 4, 2023·edited Aug 4, 2023Liked by Todd Beeton
Well said. Thank you.
I agree that the US has been indoctrinated for generations to feel that belief in one god is so normal as to be expected. This typically also carries with it the belief that all others are false, which strikes me as laughably arrogant. I think much of the hostility towards non-believers is rooted in insecurity. The haters feel they MUST believe, but don't have any real basis for it, so they lash out any anyone who fits the "other" mold (the same is true for much of the bigotry out there).
All religions are creations of men (in nearly every case, just men, not "people" which would include women). Yet in spite of clear proof that the religion has been invented with no factual basis, millions will consider it as unassailable (and often cherry-pick segments out of context to justify their prejudices and bigotry. GRrrrrrrrr.).
This line sums it up for me: "out of all the gods that have ever been believed, theists and atheists disbelieve all the same gods except for one." So true.
By the way, I often joke that I'm a recovering Catholic, but what I really mean by that is that I was raised Catholic, but constantly questioned it, and never got even semi-reasonable answers. Finally I realized that once I got past the fear of being labeled a "non-believer", I was much more content.
By the way, one of the earliest questions I asked (at about 7 or 8 years old) was about the concept of "Hell". At that time, nearly anything could be cause for "going to hell" (i.e. missing church, etc.). I asked: "So if I'm going to hell for missing church one time, then the threat is gone. I may as well go on a murder spree since there are no more consequences for my spirit . . . ". This of course was greeted with much stuttering, mumbling, and general word-salads from the adults who then quickly changed the topic . . . Hmmmmmmmmmm. . . .
Try identifying as a vegan, or better yet, an atheist vegan. Talk about arrogant! People will dislike you because your existence makes them feel guilty.
BTW, I am an atheist vegan. But while I am disinterested in organized religion, I consider myself “spiritual”. How does *that* work?
Aug 3, 2023Liked by Todd Beeton, The Big Picture, George Takei
Thank you Todd. A very fine article on belief etc.
I had to “sort of” laugh because just yesterday I wondered if there might be a “personal” Angel out there just for me.... 😇🙏🏻🤗👏🏻 of course I have been an atheist my whole life. A Catholic trained Mother, an agnostic Father, a come together in a Unitarian
Community late in life for parents... no religious training for their children except to be told we could choose our own path!
I do not believe in the concept of god and haven't for a long time. I'm also tired of the hypocrisy of organized religions; not the believers per se, the religions. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, went to Catholic grade school and high school and every time I questioned some aspect of this faith it was made clear that there was something wrong with me. I'm a cisgender woman and soon realized that the Catholic Church viewed women as not equal to men. I realized that the Church viewed LGBTQ+ individuals as inferior and "wrong". I realized that the Church created havens for pedophiles, allowing them to flourish and covering up their horrible actions. This behavior is not limited to the Catholic Church as most, if not all, organized religions display these behaviors. At least in the ancient Greek and Roman societies (and others) female gods existed, but not in the jewish or christian religions. There is only one god who is male. If god existed they would be beyond gender since sexual identity is a human construct. Why would god create everything and then ignore it all. I believe in morals and ethics. I believe that no one should harm others and everyone should help others when possible. I don't need to believe in god to believe in this.
I really enjoyed the distinction and clear definitions of how agnostic, gnostic, atheist, and theist are actually conflated incorrectly in public discourse. I miss nuance and differentiation in public news and discourse. I am very happy to find it here in this reader supported space.
My journey to atheism was brief and came early. I don't recall exactly when but I think I was about 12 when it dawned on the that all religions were myths, no different than the ancient Greek and Roman myths I was learning about in school. I was raised in the Congregational church which is very non-dogmatic so it was not a huge leap; our religious education classes had exposed me to a number of different religions. Perhaps the clincher was when a friend told me that a Catholic priest had told him his mother was going to hell because she was not a Catholic. Never looked back or doubted my decision.
There is nothing more arrogant and pernicious than the belief that some supernatural entity or group of entities reached down and blessed you, your family, your tribe, your nation or your species above all others. And it requires a double dose of arrogance to adhere to such beliefs in the face of what we know about the size and age of the cosmos and the history of life on this planet. Humanity will only become adult when we collectively surrender notions that we are somehow special and that some supernatural entity will look out for our well-being and ultimately save us from disaster. And we'd better get there quickly if we want to survive much longer as a species.
I was raised Roman Catholic, but had difficulty just believing in what the church taught. When I started talking about that doubt, my girlfriend (now wife) introduced me to her campus priest. He talked to me about symbolism in Catholicism, and helped me understand that Jesus’s teachings were really about being good to one another as we are all humans, and deserving of love and kindness. I have, since then identified as Christian since I try to follow his teachings, not because of any creeds that the heads of the church developed.
I think that, at least in my case, I am weary of self identifying atheists since many people I have met who call themselves “atheist” have been arrogant and intolerant of me and my beliefs just because I don’t identify as atheist. I have also had issues with so-called Christians, since they also have berated me and claimed that I am not Christian since I don’t believe that Jesus was God.
You seem to be a rational person, and don’t seem like the type to put down others because of their labels, but someone I could respect, irregardless of what you call yourself. You seem the polar opposite of the atheist who disagreed with me because of my belief about the teachings of Jesus and being good to one another, just because “The Bible is just a story and Jesus believed in a non existent God.” What’s important is not how we label ourselves, but our actions towards others.
Well, now, with the obnoxious rise of Christian Nationalism, this was a breath of fresh air. I identify as "none of the above" when asked. Born and raised Presbyterian, lived with an orthodox Jewish family for a year IN a traditionally Moslem country (Turkey) married a non-practicing Jew, went to a fabulous Catholic school for a year in high school, lived in Southeast Asia, so experienced Buddhism first hand. I've learned from them all.
At this juncture, I choose not to identify with any of them, though the principles of the Buddhist life come closest to how I wish to live mine.
Beliefs should be held deeply close to home, and like the bedroom, are no place for prying eyes and questions.
"With more and more Americans identifying as non-religious, why is there still a stigma hanging over atheism?"
Indeed, there should be no stigma hanging over anyone about this. It is a non-issue for me, and I consider myself 'spiritual'---I don't 'believe' in anything in particular except that there appears to be a reality, a Universe of both order and chaos---and it's both beautiful and scary, and I want to know and experience as much of it as possible while I am here...or not. ;-) If others want to identify one way or another, that is strictly their personal business, unless they make it my business (As some feel they must do). I care about character and human decency and how one treats all beings---things that have nothing to do religion, or even a belief in a supreme being. So...
...There should be no judgment about any of it. If there is a stigma about it, human beings have created it for their own selfish reasons. As a matter of fact, even doing surveys has layers of stigma attached. (Who wants to know, and why is it important to ask?)
One of the things that always fascinates me in the dispute between theists, atheists, and agnostics, is the implied definition of what a god IS. It is clearly a power that cares about and intervenes in human life. From that follows somehow an obligation to both worship and propitiate that power. From that arise all the doctrines and rituals that various religions--and differing segments of same--hold to be the One Truth.
I was raised High Church Episcopalian as a compromise between my father's Catholic family and my mother's Presbyterian one. (That, btw, is a very shaky reason to be indoctrinated in a specific religion). During the inevitable boring sermons, as a pre-teen and young teen I would read the 39 Articles of the Anglican Communion conveniently printed in the back of the Book of Common Prayer. What that told me, insofar as it made much sense at all, was that both sides of my family were wrong. I also couldn't see how the Articles made any sense in terms of internal consistency. In college, studying Calvinism as part of Western Civ, I concluded that I must be one of the damned. What a freeing thought! No need for worship or propitiation: just lead the best life you could because that was all that was left to you of virtue. And virtue--or ethics--seemed to me a value that kept us apart from "animals." (Now I'm not so sure animals don't have their own sense of ethics.)
I've read a lot of theories about cosmology, enough to know that nobody KNOWS that origin of what we know of the universe. Could be blind chance, could be something we haven't yet begun to think about. Whatever it is, there is NO reason to think it cares a jot about humans in particular. It has always been the case that some "prayers" are "answered" and a whole lot more not answered. Coincidence and confirmation bias explain that phenomenon pretty well.
So to the extent that agnostics are defined as thinking that there is a God "who" is unknowable, I'm not an agnostic, nor (in the sense of believing that Chance is the only alternative to a human-centric "god") am I an atheist. It is why, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, I consider myself to be part of the Congregation of the Sublimely Indifferent. The one ethical rule found in pretty much all religions, and pretty much also IGNORED by most religious folk, is the Golden Rule. So: don't worry about what "god" thinks--just keep on truckin' following that rule as best you can.
That includes not being judgmental about people for their faith, but just for their failures to follow the very tenets of that faith.
I believe many people won’t admit to being an atheist because the word, “atheist” has been sullied. And if one equates atheism with arrogance, then it should also be applied to those who do believe in God as that view also takes the same amount of arrogance. How can pea brained humans positively know what is unknowable?
I was a recovering Catholic but now I would have to call myself an agnostic. I adore Stephen Colbert but I would offer this in response to his question, “What is an agnostic but an atheist without any balls?” I would counter, “What is a theist but a gullible person with an excess of balls, i.e.: the hubris and arrogance to declare they KNOW a completely UNKNOWABLE, UNPROVABLE thing such as 'there is a God.'
Atheist is a word/view that many won’t admit to because just like the word, “liberal,” it has become conflated with something evil and wrong. It’s part of the religious brainwashing that most of us have suffered through since birth. We can thank patriarchal organized religion for that.
It’s impossible to know for a fact that there is an invisible omnipresent, omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc. BEING and they did and can do all these miracles. It’s also impossible to claim that there is absolutely no God because you can’t prove a negative. My limited knowledge should reasonably keep me from making such proclamations on either side and the same should go for the rest of the planet. But that’s never going to happen. And who knows? There was a time when doctors laughed at the idea of washing their hands because of invisible microbes that could spread disease and infection. It took technology to be able to see those “invisible” microbes to prove they existed and to get doctors to wash their hands. Perhaps someday they might invent a similar technology that can allow us to see other dimensions or even “God.”
Then as every philosophy 101 college course should teach, there’s always the question of evil. An omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent being would and should eradicate evil and not allow suffering but that’s not the case. So, the question of evil blows up the whole omnibenevolent, omnipotent god mythos. How can you be all powerful, everywhere at once and all good but still allow evil to exist in the world? Blows so many holes in the idea of a God that it can’t be reconciled. But my most worrisome issue regarding the subject of God is organized patriarchal religion. That’s something I would like to see abolished forever and replaced with a common societal goal of community support which would go a long way in uniting more people then some magic sky wizard.
I can't call myself an atheist because I am too spiritual. I have experienced mystical things that I can’t begin to explain in a logical fashion so that’s when I question what is really true about what’s out there in our universe. So I’ll just keep my mind open and see what I continue to learn. I feel as though there are things that humans will never be able to explain or understand, certainly not in my lifetime, and quite possibly, not even in humankind’s future, and that’s okay. Mystery is a good thing. It adds to the wonder of the world and I’m okay with that. But atheists will always be demonized so long as there is organized patriarchal religion. When we free ourselves of the misogynistic Christofascist and Muslimfascist patriarchy-then the word “atheist” will probably come to be as innocuous a label as “human.” We have a long way to go.
Happily atheist. Willing to be proven wrong with facts. None have been provided.
My father was a pastor so I was raised in Christian belief. Through most of my life, I accepted this faith because it gave me comfort in difficult times. When I turned 50 I started to question this belief. I had always imagined God to be male and my life at that time made maleness a decided negative. Also I had recently returned from living in Japan where I met many as devoted to their Buddhist or Shinto idea of god as the Christians surrounding me were to theirs. It was a short step from “There is one god revealed to us through Christ” to “There are many manifestations of God” to “None of it makes sense to me any more.” I can’t bring myself to say I don’t believe - it denies the foundation of the life I was raised in - but I also no longer find any certainty in that belief. Meanwhile, my life goes on pretty much the same with or without religion. At 79 I probably will find out sooner rather than later what the truth really is. I can live with that unknowing.
As I read this wonderful article, I kept thinking to myself “that’s me, that’s my journey, that’s what I think”. I want to send this to many family members as a much more eloquent explanation of my atheism than I could ever muster. Unfortunately, because of my political leanings and lack of belief in a god or gods, those family members have severed any relationship. Ah well, their loss.
Well said. Thank you.
I agree that the US has been indoctrinated for generations to feel that belief in one god is so normal as to be expected. This typically also carries with it the belief that all others are false, which strikes me as laughably arrogant. I think much of the hostility towards non-believers is rooted in insecurity. The haters feel they MUST believe, but don't have any real basis for it, so they lash out any anyone who fits the "other" mold (the same is true for much of the bigotry out there).
All religions are creations of men (in nearly every case, just men, not "people" which would include women). Yet in spite of clear proof that the religion has been invented with no factual basis, millions will consider it as unassailable (and often cherry-pick segments out of context to justify their prejudices and bigotry. GRrrrrrrrr.).
This line sums it up for me: "out of all the gods that have ever been believed, theists and atheists disbelieve all the same gods except for one." So true.
By the way, I often joke that I'm a recovering Catholic, but what I really mean by that is that I was raised Catholic, but constantly questioned it, and never got even semi-reasonable answers. Finally I realized that once I got past the fear of being labeled a "non-believer", I was much more content.
By the way, one of the earliest questions I asked (at about 7 or 8 years old) was about the concept of "Hell". At that time, nearly anything could be cause for "going to hell" (i.e. missing church, etc.). I asked: "So if I'm going to hell for missing church one time, then the threat is gone. I may as well go on a murder spree since there are no more consequences for my spirit . . . ". This of course was greeted with much stuttering, mumbling, and general word-salads from the adults who then quickly changed the topic . . . Hmmmmmmmmmm. . . .
Peace.
Try identifying as a vegan, or better yet, an atheist vegan. Talk about arrogant! People will dislike you because your existence makes them feel guilty.
BTW, I am an atheist vegan. But while I am disinterested in organized religion, I consider myself “spiritual”. How does *that* work?
Thank you Todd. A very fine article on belief etc.
I had to “sort of” laugh because just yesterday I wondered if there might be a “personal” Angel out there just for me.... 😇🙏🏻🤗👏🏻 of course I have been an atheist my whole life. A Catholic trained Mother, an agnostic Father, a come together in a Unitarian
Community late in life for parents... no religious training for their children except to be told we could choose our own path!
Amazing article! Thank you