The Big Q&A With Matthew Sheffield

In our Big Q&A, former right-wing online activist Matthew Sheffield breaks down the authoritarian roots of Trump's MAGA movement and explains why you can't reason with his most die-hard fans.

As the presidential primary season gives way to the general election and as Donald Trump appears more and more unhinged and confused by the day, one question continues to confound so many of us: what is behind MAGA’s devotion to this unrepentant con man and grifter? That question has been a theme of many of our pieces here at The Big Picture, but rarely do we get the perspective of a former Republican to shed some light on the subject.

That’s why I was so pleased to be able to interview Matthew Sheffield, a former GOP online activist turned expert on right-wing extremism, who brings a unique perspective to the subject. In our conversation, Matthew touches on the authoritarianism at the heart of Trumpism and why pointing out all of Trump’s literal and figurative crimes will never shift his most die-hard fans away from him. And he provides a window into how we can begin to influence any MAGA fans we may have in our own lives. You can read more about these topics at his ‘Flux’ Substack here.

— George

Your recent X thread on why you can’t reason with MAGA about Trump touched a nerve for us here at The Big Picture, and so we wanted to explore the thread—and your essay at Flux—a bit more. The title of your essay is “Trump super fans are impossible to argue with because they don’t actually believe in logic”, essentially saying the only value driving their devotion to Trump is authority, not reality. Can you expand on this idea and explain how the authoritarianism at the heart of their MAGA devotion is in direct conflict with the ability to acknowledge reality?

The 20th century was a battle between economists over which was better, communism or capitalism. In the end, every government has come down somewhere in the middle with a “mixed economy” that has some pieces owned by the government and other pieces owned by private businesses.

In the 21st century, we are stuck in a battle of epistemologies where people who believe in science and reason are being opposed by people who believe in hierarchy. Hierarchical authority-based reasoning was very important in human development because in a dangerous environment, it is generally safer for the group to listen and follow the smartest or strongest member. But this type of thinking is limiting when we no longer have to dodge saber tooth cats or cave lions.

As humanity progressed, we developed higher ordered reasoning, thought processes that enabled us to not just have hunches about how things worked, but to actually test whether our ideas were correct. And as a result, human knowledge has snowballed.

Everyone still uses authority-based reasoning sometimes, of course, particularly in areas we don’t know much about. I certainly encourage people to follow their doctor’s advice on dealing with sickness rather than taking advice from steroid-addicted podcasters, for instance. But this type of thinking stops progress if everyone follows it. We need a way for people to earn authority through proving what they say is true rather than just being trusted on it. That’s what science is.

Authority-based reasoning is also dangerous when it comes to politics and religion because if you don’t believe in the scientific method of establishing authority, then the only other way of establishing it is by violence. The history of every single culture proves this.

You have an interesting backstory. You were a right-wing agitator of sorts 25 years ago, can you tell our audience about your own journey away from the right and where you feel at home politically now? 

I’m actually writing a book about my experience coming out of the right-wing political environment. I originally was attracted to it by being born and raised in a fundamentalist Mormon family that lived an itinerant lifestyle across many states. More than a few times we were homeless as my father pursued a self-described “mission” to play classical guitar music on the street and pass out religious literature.

As I grew older, I naturally became attracted to the Republican party as George W. Bush laid out the red carpet for Christian nationalists. This interest led me to create one of the first blogs, a website against Dan Rather, who was then the anchor of the “CBS Evening News” because I didn’t like his coverage of my fellow right-wing Christian, Kenneth Starr, the independent counsel who was the scourge of former president Bill Clinton.

One thing led to another and eventually, I started a marketing company catering to Republican groups. Along the way, I decided to leave Mormonism after I actually decided to examine its historical claims about Jewish Native Americans and Adam and Eve being from Missouri. To my great surprise but also relief, these ideas turned out to be incorrect. There was a lot about Mormon culture that I didn’t like, particularly its treatment of women and young single adults of both sexes, and once I realized that it might not actually be true, everything collapsed rapidly. I had a similar epiphany after a few years of running my company and creating several prominent right-wing websites that still exist today. (Sorry about that!)

In the process of building the media infrastructure for Republicans, I conceived the idea of writing a book to reflect what I had learned along the way. I argued that Republicans needed to stop with the Christian supremacism, fully welcome LGBT people, and start thinking about making government better rather than just cutting it.

But in doing the research and writing, I soon came to the conclusion that my arguments, however well-formed, would be completely unpersuasive to the Republican leadership class, because most of them saw themselves as God’s servants, and that those who did not were not bothered to share a political party with people under such a dangerous delusion.

I got out and eventually started up my site, Flux, as a way to share what I had learned about the radical right and also to help other people on the center-left build something that could be economically sustainable. The right-wing is so much better at helping people make a career out of political activism and I want to try to fix that disparity.

It was not surprising for me to see you reference the Bible in your essay, since Christian nationalism, which is itself an authoritarian movement, is a core part of the MAGA base. But there are of course many religious people who are not under the sway of Donald Trump. What is it about the strain of Christianity we’re seeing rise on the right that makes them particularly susceptible to someone like Trump?

Yes, there are a lot of people who are Christians who are not in the Trump cult. The reason they are not under his sway is that they have more mature theological viewpoints. The Bible is not a science book any more than Homer’s Odyssey is, even though both works are filled with all kinds of insights into the human condition. Mature Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of other traditions have realized that religion is only a part of human knowledge.

Inside the world’s colleges and universities, people who believe superstitious things like “young earth creationism” (the notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old) lost the argument more than a century ago. You will get laughed out of any academic conference if you want to present a paper arguing that the flood of Noah was real or that humans are not genetically related to great apes. Unfortunately, among average Americans, belief in ancient legends about human origins has been incredibly durable. Even more incredibly, for many decades, people with anti-science viewpoints actually thought that their views were factual. If you want a hilarious and horrifying way of seeing what I’m talking about, I recommend watching Ben Stein’s awful 2008 movie “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.”

Once the internet became completely pervasive within society, low-information religious fundamentalists finally became aware that their side had totally and completely lost all scientific and historical arguments. This has been extremely traumatizing psychologically because all of the authorities they have been conditioned to believe (pastors, the Bible, political leaders) proclaimed themselves to be infallible. Instead, they were completely defenseless against anthropologists, biologists, and historians.

But rather than admit they were wrong and adapt to modernity, religious fundamentalists have decided to attack it and to force the majority who disbelieve their ideas to genuflect before them. Having failed to convince people of their beliefs, they have decided to mandate them. In so doing, they are embracing their core epistemology, that knowledge comes from authority rather than from the scientific method. The Bible says it’s true, so therefore it is. I feel a warm fuzzy feeling when I watch my favorite pastor, so therefore what he says is true.

These viewpoints are dangerous and the only way to deal with them is to politically disempower them. They will never compromise because they believe they are enacting God’s will. A lot of people thought that abortion rights were a settled controversy after Roe v. Wade but the far right never accepted it. These same activists are hard at work to criminalize homosexuality, to take away all women’s rights, and to prohibit atheism or non-Christian religion. They literally do want Christo-fascism.

Can you talk about the authoritarianism you saw in the Republican Party even before Trump?

There were always two strains of authoritarianism within the Republican party, both long pre-date Trump’s political career. The first of these is an ideology that’s currently called “paleoconservatism” by political scientists. This tradition, which goes back to the days of atheist columnist H.L. Mencken, is virulently racist and believes that black people are genetically inferior and that all social welfare policies should be stopped because some people are just too poor and stupid to ever be able to manage their own affairs successfully. This tradition still exists today and is dominated by acolytes of the writer Ayn Rand, particularly technology oligarchs like Peter Thiel or Elon Musk. Some of them are religious, some of them are not.

The other tradition is the Christian right tradition, which is so prominent now in the Trump movement. But it was around many decades earlier thanks to the activism of conspiracy theorists like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Cleon Skousen, and Billy James Hargis. These people had always been the voting base of the modern Republican party, but they were mostly kept in the closet by Presidents Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George H. W. Bush, none of whom was particularly religious.

At the end of your essay, you make clear that to break MAGA fans out of their stupor, you can’t go after their belief in Trump, but rather “attack the ideas and emotions that make Trump worship appealing.” Can you give us examples of how to go about doing that?

Attacking Trump himself is too much for his most devoted supporters to handle. He occupies a prophet-like status in their minds. And that’s not me exaggerating. Recently, a far-right TV channel interviewed a Trump supporter at one of his rallies who spoke for millions of his most delusional fans. “He’s a godly man, he’s working for God, for darn sure,” she said. “He is actually working for God, and he wants to help us.”

Trying to help people with views like this confront the reality that Donald Trump is a serial grifter who has stolen millions of dollars from his fans and was found liable for sexual abuse is too much for them to handle. It would destroy their psyche to have to admit that they were totally wrong about the person who is their great leader.

It’s easier to focus on small-time grifters like Rep. Lauren Boebert, who engaged in obviously inappropriate behavior in a public theater, or people like Steve Bannon, who was convicted of stealing money from supporters. Getting Trumpers to see how other people in their movement are stupid con artists is a lot easier than getting them to realize the truth about him. You have to work your way up for someone who is caught in a cult.

People’s religious views can also be turned around to help free them from MAGA. For instance, a Catholic reactionary might be more susceptible to exposés about Evangelical grifters, whereas Evangelicals might be more able to view Christian nationalism skeptically when they realize that many of its ideas originate within Mormon theology.

Humor is also deadly to authoritarians because it takes them off the pedestal of greatness. Almost always, evil is also idiotic. Pointing that out is essential, it’s why in addition to writing political columns, I also have a silly news panel show with my comedian friend Lisa Curry called Doomscroll.

Matthew Sheffield is the publisher of Flux and host of the Theory of Change video podcast. His writings and broadcasts about public opinion, right-wing extremism, misinformation, and technology trends have been quoted and cited by numerous media outlets including the New York Times, the Washington Post, NPR, NBC, CNN, and PC Magazine.